DTD 300- Tough spot or easiest fold ever

[George2Loose]

The very fact that this thread is 6 pages comforts me and the very fact that people are discussing this means it's not a trivial fold in my eyes.

I hate 4 betting pre/4 bet folding/4 betting to get it in. I have position and a hand I don't mind just folding on most flops or calling c-bets on some.

I spose if he plays it properly he's going to get a fair number of chips anyway?

I think if this was a tougher event I would be more inclined to call but in this spot in the future it's probably a fold.

Players in the 300, feel free to overjam turn in future as a bluff, safe in the knowledge that I am folding

[outragous76]

but what did he have george was it and he gets there?

[Nit Tendencies]

Although I agree that dynamic is much more important than hole card information, I think to say it is completely useless is very naieve indeed and I'm very surprised James said that. Dynamic dictates how people adapt their holdings to how they are feeling/their perception of what other people are doing at the table, but I suspect if this guy was changing up and adapting to the dynamic George would have mentioned that in his OP because fish make this pretty obvious. This is one of the examples of immediate information that I mentioned in a previous post. It's not just that fact that he had AT, it's the way he plays it that let's us into his way of thinking and we can use THAT information to make more informed plays later on in the game. And IMHO, this information leads me to the conclusions that I've been trying to convey in my previous posts (which may or may not be clear as my posts have been a bit rushed).

Tbh the only person who can really tell you how the fish was reacting to the game flow is the fish, because we can make educated judgments, but people often react very illogically to situations they are not comfortable in. I guess you could use that sentence to back up your argument that he might be losing his brain, but what in trying to say is that we can only make good decisions based on the information we have in front of us, and te only direct info we've given from the op is the AT hand which despite what Trumper and Keys have said (who I both respect btw but I think you may be misapplying what they were trying to say) is quite key to our insight into judging this guys tendencies.

If there was some information based on dynamic that was available to us, the op would have read closer to "this guy had previously been quite cally but seemed to be getting pissed off with me opening a lot".

Since it didn't, we have to assume he's going to stick somewhere near the classic characteristics of his fish type. Especially when in his head hrs risking so many chips. Remember he's probably not very analytical, and will not be so desensitised to the money or the sense of risk as we are, overshoving the turn after overbetting the flop is a big deal to a fish.

Sorry if this is a bit "stream of consciousness" I'm on a train posting from my phone...

P.s. As for the previous comment about being nitty, I doubt many people would describe me as that.... There's a pretty big difference between being a nit and not calling a 2x+ turn shove in a 3bet pot against a fish with one pair pre ante with over 100bb back

[Nit Tendencies]

Good to have you on pha Jamie. Poast moarrrrrr

I'M clinically lazy and far too opinionated... That's a ridiculous combo for poker forums lol.

[Dewi_cool]

George, do you think his demeanour contributed to the call, because I thought he looked really uncomfortable after the shove?

[SuuPRlim]

In this hand I suspect the A-10 was from a previous round and thus from over 30 minutes ago, but even if it's from this round the dynamics have certainly changed a lot. Villain is feeling intoxicated from hitting miracles, feels like he's freerolling, has more than twice the chips, and is playing a different oppo with a different image. Yet you can deduce from seeing that A-10 hand and only that one hand exactly what type of player we have, what his 3betting range is, how he plays various holdings, and how he's going to play this hand based on knowledge from a different dynamic some time ago. And tbf there are a lot of people who are similarly convinced that they know exactly how this player thinks from seeing that one hand. That is very interesting to me.

I think Mantis, the point ur making here is pretty much the crux of the whole thread.

Idk if this is what you think but I agree with what uv said and think it makes this more of a fold.

We have limited information and can only make assumptions, everything points to the strong possibility of a big hand and the rest circumstantially points to possible bluffs/ spazzes

as we dont know and it's for so many chips surely we should lean to the side of caution.

[SuuPRlim]

also abso sick value line from this guy

hats off imo

[George2Loose]

George, do you think his demeanour contributed to the call, because I thought he looked really uncomfortable after the shove?

Came into it a little Dewi but not all that much. My live tells can often be mixed to say the least. On this occasion I wish I'd went with my gut and folded. He could have turned over the same hand and that was ultimately what I was hoping for I spose. As said previously- the fact that I had AK made it more unlikely he had aces.

I did like his rubdown "What else could i have?"

FTR, if you haven't figured it out, he had two black aces

[Solaris]

also abso sick value line from this guy

hats off imo

 

One of those, "I'm really not sure if you're being serious or not" moments.

[George2Loose]

also abso sick value line from this guy

hats off imo

 

One of those, "I'm really not sure if you're being serious or not" moments.

Obv level

[Solaris]

also abso sick value line from this guy

hats off imo

 

One of those, "I'm really not sure if you're being serious or not" moments.

Obv level

Maybe he means it. I mean after all, even the villain thinks he played it face up and you should have made a super duper easy fold...lol

[Nit Tendencies]

FTR, if you haven't figured it out, he had two black aces

[MANTIS01]

In this hand I suspect the A-10 was from a previous round and thus from over 30 minutes ago, but even if it's from this round the dynamics have certainly changed a lot. Villain is feeling intoxicated from hitting miracles, feels like he's freerolling, has more than twice the chips, and is playing a different oppo with a different image. Yet you can deduce from seeing that A-10 hand and only that one hand exactly what type of player we have, what his 3betting range is, how he plays various holdings, and how he's going to play this hand based on knowledge from a different dynamic some time ago. And tbf there are a lot of people who are similarly convinced that they know exactly how this player thinks from seeing that one hand. That is very interesting to me.

I think Mantis, the point ur making here is pretty much the crux of the whole thread.

Idk if this is what you think but I agree with what uv said and think it makes this more of a fold.

We have limited information and can only make assumptions, everything points to the strong possibility of a big hand and the rest circumstantially points to possible bluffs/ spazzes

as we dont know and it's for so many chips surely we should lean to the side of caution.

Yeah mate that is exactly what I think. Sorry to look stupid on the way there. However, I think it's pretty interesting that people are so certain exactly how a player thinks after seeing just one hand. I loved that. The focus on the A-10 as the only real scrap of info, over 30 mins ago, and different dynamic shows how important info is really. I never advocated calling but know it's tough to fold and never trivial for many people reading this, esp in a game situation, myself included, so getting good players like James to expand upon two words was more than worthwhile. But yeh sorry for being stupid and looking silly. Feel bad about that.

[strak33]

Good to have you on pha Jamie. Poast moarrrrrr

[George2Loose]

also abso sick value line from this guy

hats off imo

 

One of those, "I'm really not sure if you're being serious or not" moments.

Obv level

Maybe he means it. I mean after all, even the villain thinks he played it face up and you should have made a super duper easy fold...lol

Yeh deffo enjoyed his rub. Like AK is the only worse hand I call with here. WP mate