Dem Aces, an elderly gentleman and a paired board: A short story of pain.

[cambridgealex]

I'm not folding this ever.

If he's got the ten good luck to him.

Lol be more ridiculous

What's ridiculous about calling with an ace and another ace?

Is it because he might have a ten?

Well there's plenty of other hands that he might have as well so I think calling is better than folding.

If you're going to fold then fold to his flop raise.

If I'm calling the flop it's because I think I'm winning and I've already decided that my stack is going in. I'm not deep enough to think otherwise.

Calling the flop with the plan that if he puts the rest of his chips in we're folding seems bad to me.

Were you calling hoping that he was going to give up on the turn and river and let you showdown against whatever he may have?

Think he was referring to your terminology.

Should probably have elaborated a little but I don't think it requires much elaboration.

Just decide if he has the ten and go with it.

This decision should have been made on the flop though unless we're calling for information.

this is pretty terrible analysis imo. i call flop because he can be raising with worse. reevaluate turn and decide when he bets again his range changes and now decide he has Tx or 22.

[boldie]

i call flop because he can be raising with worse. reevaluate turn and decide when he bets again his range changes and now decide he has Tx or 22.

But what does the change for you? Other than it shows you that he's not afraid to fire a second barrel? Does him firing again really narrow his range to 10x or a FH?

[cambridgealex]

i call flop because he can be raising with worse. reevaluate turn and decide when he bets again his range changes and now decide he has Tx or 22.

But what does the change for you? Other than it shows you that he's not afraid to fire a second barrel? Does him firing again really narrow his range to 10x or a FH?

It changes enough for me to believe his range is way smaller than otf. For me, it eliminated 88 and 99 from his range because I believed that this player would slow down with these hands on this turn, or at least consider slowing down, even if he thought for a few seconds before betting I mightve come to a different decision.

It's so ridic to say that the king changes nothing. Just because it doesn't hit his range at all and doesn't improve my hand, his range still changes when he bets the king.

[SuuPRlim]

Once he bets the turn I am snap folding here.  When you say he is old how old???  >75 and I would probably fold the flop tbh >60 but <75 I call and fold turn.  Age is normally a massive tell in these games.

I dunno, old is old! >30 = old!

Probably in his 60s.

I agree age is everything.

Ahem.

See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageism

And in particular.....

"adultocracy" & "gerontophobia".

I deny completely any claims of ephebiphobia.

Don't correct him. Use it to your advantage and bluff him!!

I happen to know the Gentleman in question, & he told me he had complete air.  Standard "elderly gentleman" play v yoofs, imo.

I starting to fucking love this guy. 1 drink on lil dave for everytime he crushes Alex's soul pls. 

I wonder if the oldies have a pha board to discuss hands and strategy?

"So there's this young arrogant kid who thinks I'm a fish because I'm over 30 and I don't have HEM, pokertracker or an ipad........"

 

[EvilPie]

i call flop because he can be raising with worse. reevaluate turn and decide when he bets again his range changes and now decide he has Tx or 22.

But what does the change for you? Other than it shows you that he's not afraid to fire a second barrel? Does him firing again really narrow his range to 10x or a FH?

It changes enough for me to believe his range is way smaller than otf. For me, it eliminated 88 and 99 from his range because I believed that this player would slow down with these hands on this turn, or at least consider slowing down, even if he thought for a few seconds before betting I mightve come to a different decision.

It's so ridic to say that the king changes nothing. Just because it doesn't hit his range at all and doesn't improve my hand, his range still changes when he bets the king.

So you were calling for information?

You can put some ribbons on it and say it's re-evaluating the turn if you like but that's what you've done.

I don't think the king changes a lot to be honest. If this guy's as bad as we think I'm pretty sure that once he's bet 180 on the flop his last 200's going in no matter what happens on the turn.

Have you considered that the king may add to the bluffs in his range. If he was bluffing the flop he can now get you to lay down JJ, QQ and any other pair that you may have hero'd with. Given his calling station image pre he can rep pretty much any Kx hand. He could even have Kx and now he's decided to shove for value.

Can you really see him giving up if he has an under pair? He's a bad player whom we're hoping to stack at some point. Bad players do bad things and one of them from what I know is deciiding that a pot is their's and going with it.

This all comes down to your perception of him. If you don't think he's capable of bluffing you should be folding the flop. If you do think he's capable of bluffing then your stack should be finding it's way in to the middle regardless of the turn.

I know you don't like simple analysis but in this case it actually is simple.

Also be careful with your timing tells. You say that he shoved instantly which made you think he must have it. It can also mean that he's repping it and doesn't care what the turn is his stack's going in because he wants that pot. There's nothing like a good old confident all in to make the other guy think you've got a monster.

[cambridgealex]

Regretting my title of the thread now. If it had been utg 4b calling range vs a 33/23 lagtard I think Tikay would've swerved it...

In before he claims those are his favourite type of threads on the Oldies forum.  

[cambridgealex]

i call flop because he can be raising with worse. reevaluate turn and decide when he bets again his range changes and now decide he has Tx or 22.

But what does the change for you? Other than it shows you that he's not afraid to fire a second barrel? Does him firing again really narrow his range to 10x or a FH?

It changes enough for me to believe his range is way smaller than otf. For me, it eliminated 88 and 99 from his range because I believed that this player would slow down with these hands on this turn, or at least consider slowing down, even if he thought for a few seconds before betting I mightve come to a different decision.

It's so ridic to say that the king changes nothing. Just because it doesn't hit his range at all and doesn't improve my hand, his range still changes when he bets the king.

So you were calling for information?

You can put some ribbons on it and say it's re-evaluating the turn if you like but that's what you've done.

I don't think the king changes a lot to be honest. If this guy's as bad as we think I'm pretty sure that once he's bet 180 on the flop his last 200's going in no matter what happens on the turn. it's not his last 200, i have 360 and he has me covered by some way. I don't think he even looked at how much I had left.

Have you considered that the king may add to the bluffs in his range. If he was bluffing the flop he can now get you to lay down JJ, QQ and any other pair that you may have hero'd with. Given his calling station image pre he can rep pretty much any Kx hand. He could even have Kx and now he's decided to shove for value.

Can you really see him giving up if he has an under pair? He's a bad player whom we're hoping to stack at some point. Bad players do bad things and one of them from what I know is deciiding that a pot is their's and going with it.

This all comes down to your perception of him. If you don't think he's capable of bluffing you should be folding the flop. If you do think he's capable of bluffing then your stack should be finding it's way in to the middle regardless of the turn.

I know you don't like simple analysis but in this case it actually is simple. it really isn't

Also be careful with your timing tells. You say that he shoved instantly which made you think he must have it. It can also mean that he's repping it and doesn't care what the turn is his stack's going in because he wants that pot. There's nothing like a good old confident all in to make the other guy think you've got a monster.

So you're saying he's turning his hand into a bluff? Raising the flop with 77-JJ then without a seconds thought deciding "this is a great card to rep I'm gonna try and get this kid off QQ". I just don't see it.

I possibly did make a massive mistake in folding this and he could be just mashing buttons with A2 or 66. But don't call me arrogant for claiming that this guy did not know to raise the flop with 99 then instantly decide to turn it into a bluff on the turn.

[jakally]

Think you're trying to give this guy too much credit Alex, by even suggesting he may think about the King being anything other than the next card to be dealt.
On the flop , he is either thinking 'I have a ten', or 'he can't have a ten'.
He isn't going to rethink this at any point unless you take the betting lead from him.

FWIW, after you had gone, and a hand was being discussed, he said 'I think you are all taking it too seriously'.

[boldie]

Think you're trying to give this guy too much credit Alex, by even suggesting he may think about the King being anything other than the next card to be dealt.
On the flop , he is either thinking 'I have a ten', or 'he can't have a ten'.
He isn't going to rethink this at any point unless you take the betting lead from him.

FWIW, after you had gone, and a hand was being discussed, he said 'I think you are all taking it too seriously'.

He's not wrong.

[cambridgealex]

Think you're trying to give this guy too much credit Alex, by even suggesting he may think about the King being anything other than the next card to be dealt.
On the flop , he is either thinking 'I have a ten', or 'he can't have a ten'.
He isn't going to rethink this at any point unless you take the betting lead from him.

FWIW, after you had gone, and a hand was being discussed, he said 'I think you are all taking it too seriously'.

He's not wrong.

I hope that's a level. You're not seriously suggesting that it's not prudent to analyse hands in detail in order to improve when it's your livelihood?

Neil you're probably right as usual. I think I made a bad fold, but hey, I've learnt something and will hopefully make better decisions next time because of this thread

[cambridgealex]

Think you're trying to give this guy too much credit Alex, by even suggesting he may think about the King being anything other than the next card to be dealt.

Who's hacked jakally's account? Only an arrogant youth would say such a thing...

[EvilPie]

i call flop because he can be raising with worse. reevaluate turn and decide when he bets again his range changes and now decide he has Tx or 22.

But what does the change for you? Other than it shows you that he's not afraid to fire a second barrel? Does him firing again really narrow his range to 10x or a FH?

It changes enough for me to believe his range is way smaller than otf. For me, it eliminated 88 and 99 from his range because I believed that this player would slow down with these hands on this turn, or at least consider slowing down, even if he thought for a few seconds before betting I mightve come to a different decision.

It's so ridic to say that the king changes nothing. Just because it doesn't hit his range at all and doesn't improve my hand, his range still changes when he bets the king.

So you were calling for information?

You can put some ribbons on it and say it's re-evaluating the turn if you like but that's what you've done.

I don't think the king changes a lot to be honest. If this guy's as bad as we think I'm pretty sure that once he's bet 180 on the flop his last 200's going in no matter what happens on the turn. it's not his last 200, i have 360 and he has me covered by some way. I don't think he even looked at how much I had left.

Have you considered that the king may add to the bluffs in his range. If he was bluffing the flop he can now get you to lay down JJ, QQ and any other pair that you may have hero'd with. Given his calling station image pre he can rep pretty much any Kx hand. He could even have Kx and now he's decided to shove for value.

Can you really see him giving up if he has an under pair? He's a bad player whom we're hoping to stack at some point. Bad players do bad things and one of them from what I know is deciiding that a pot is their's and going with it.

This all comes down to your perception of him. If you don't think he's capable of bluffing you should be folding the flop. If you do think he's capable of bluffing then your stack should be finding it's way in to the middle regardless of the turn.

I know you don't like simple analysis but in this case it actually is simple. it really isn't

Also be careful with your timing tells. You say that he shoved instantly which made you think he must have it. It can also mean that he's repping it and doesn't care what the turn is his stack's going in because he wants that pot. There's nothing like a good old confident all in to make the other guy think you've got a monster.

So you're saying he's turning his hand into a bluff? Raising the flop with 77-JJ then without a seconds thought deciding "this is a great card to rep I'm gonna try and get this kid off QQ". I just don't see it.

I possibly did make a massive mistake in folding this and he could be just mashing buttons with A2 or 66. But don't call me arrogant for claiming that this guy did not know to raise the flop with 99 then instantly decide to turn it into a bluff on the turn.

Sorry about that. I read the OP as meaning his stack of ponies was an all in for £200. Makes a bit of a difference but not enough for me to fold.

I'm not saying that he's decided to turn his hand in to a bluff. It sounds like he's not done much decision making at all. By not thinking about the turn there is a possibility that we can discount 77-JJ but we can also add some other hands back in to his range, those being any bluffs he may have had.

Maybe this hand is easier for me because I'm closer to his level than you are. When I play cash I'm usually drunk and usually just having fun so I'll just make my decision and go with it. Try analysing a hand I play some time if you like. It might give you an insight in to how recreational players think and give you more chance of busting the fish. The thought process is very different and doesn't involve much 're-evaluating' or 'range assigning' at all.

I play tournaments very differently but for me cash is just about splashing some money around and having some fun. Win or lose I couldn't care less so hands really do come down to very simple decisions. If this gentleman is similar then he's either bluffing or value betting. His line doesn't change down the streets because his mind was made up when he made his bet on the flop. To beat this man you need to come down to one level above him, make your mind up on the flop and go with it.

I didn't call you arrogant by the way.

[EvilPie]

Think you're trying to give this guy too much credit Alex, by even suggesting he may think about the King being anything other than the next card to be dealt.
On the flop , he is either thinking 'I have a ten', or 'he can't have a ten'.
He isn't going to rethink this at any point unless you take the betting lead from him.

FWIW, after you had gone, and a hand was being discussed, he said 'I think you are all taking it too seriously'.

He's not wrong.

I hope that's a level. You're not seriously suggesting that it's not prudent to analyse hands in detail in order to improve when it's your livelihood?

Neil you're probably right as usual. I think I made a bad fold, but hey, I've learnt something and will hopefully make better decisions next time because of this thread

You're not playing at a high enough level for this, not in this particular hand anyway.

Analysing a hand where one player is at level 1 and the other is at level 5 is always going to prove difficult.

There's a saying somewhere that goes along the lines of "if he doesn't know what he's doing how am I supposed it work it out myself".

Giblin and Mitch crush these players because they don't over think hands exactly like this one. You really need to adjust your game to suit the players you're up against.

You can obviously analyse hands against the more thinking players but against this guy it really does just come down to 'has he got the ten or not?'

[SuuPRlim]

fwiw when people snap bet like that i always assume they are joke polarized and call, lets say he had  for EG, on the turn wouldn't he stop for like 10seconds and think, what if he has a better ten, what if he has KK, how much to bet - even if he had KT I think he would stop for 5 seconds and think "shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitttttt i got the nuts pretty much". If he just fistpump bets i think he either has TT or 22 or has already decided he is brufffffing and just doesnt care about the card or what affect it has on the hand.

I've seen hands like this live SO OFTEN where the explantion after the hand is "well i didnt put you on the TEN" with not rhyme or reason for this conclusion, but once they've decided you dont have a Ten thats that.

[EvilPie]

fwiw when people snap bet like that i always assume they are joke polarized and call, lets say he had  for EG, on the turn wouldn't he stop for like 10seconds and think, what if he has a better ten, what if he has KK, how much to bet - even if he had KT I think he would stop for 5 seconds and think "shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitttttt i got the nuts pretty much". If he just fistpump bets i think he either has TT or 22 or has already decided he is brufffffing and just doesnt care about the card or what affect it has on the hand.

I've seen hands like this live SO OFTEN where the explantion after the hand is "well i didnt put you on the TEN" with not rhyme or reason for this conclusion, but once they've decided you dont have a Ten thats that.

At this level Alex this as far as your analysis needs to go on this particular hand.

Your dedication to analysing hands is commendable but sometimes I promise you it can be a very simple game.