Rake : Know your enemy!

[Skgv]

**BREAKING NEWS**

Following the flop of the latest Grand Prix, DTDs announces their total overlay for the year is at an astonishing £350,000.

In response, management have decided to halve the rake on all cash games.

mmmm is this a wind up or a serious post ?

[Karabiner]

Crown Casino in Melbourne has rake and a time charge (something like 10% up to $8 plus $10 per hour)

And you have to pay for your drinks at the table.

[robyong]

Say you're playing a hypothetical 1/2 game with 10% rake up to £7. Lets take some conservative numbers; 20 hands an hour, an average pot size of £50 (for example a raise to £8 with 2 callers a £13 cbet called and no more action), a game that runs from 8pm to 4am.

5 X 20 X 8 = £800

If you sat in a game every single night with a guy who sat down, won £800 and never lost how quickly would you get tired of seeing him? At an 8 handed table that's half a stack per person per night. If you took every day you've played poker and added £100 to your bottom line how much richer would you be?

For a comparison online rake is usually 5% up to $3 (~£2) usually with around 30% rakeback.  I know that casinos have to pay dealers (minimum wage + your money in tips) and wait-staff (minimum wage + your money in tips) and generally have to provide food (at vastly inflated prices) and drinks (sometimes free). I'm sure heating and lighting can get expensive and hell we all want to make a profit. I'm a free market advocate, I'm happy for people to charge what the market will bear, I just feel that in this case consumers are grossly ill informed about the true costs of the product they are purchasing (there's a reason the drop box is hidden under the table). I'm hoping that recreational players (and regs too) start caring more about the rake, realise how much damage it is doing to their bankroll and change the market so that it will no longer bear such a heavy cost.

Hi

I have read this. Your figures are only overstated by about 25% which is not bad for a person that feels the need to actually start a brand new thread on this subject. You also should really break down the costs that your huge contribution in rake pays for (after gaming tax,dealer, chip runner, valet, drinks). Clearly you feel you are being taken advantage off/ripped off. Please come and ask for me at reception if you ever pass by my club again and I will give you an accurate breakdown personally.

One thing I would say on this matter, is that we now have a great promotion for online regs (online fpps spend in club) and for live tourney players (final table leaderboard), so we should have something for our cash game regs, i have left this till last because its harder to track than online player and live tourney play, but its on the list to do (I admit, its been on the list for a long time). Im fact, you can argue that cash game regs dont get looked after as much as tourney players by Dusk Till Dawn, as they have had £350k added so far this year in sats and comps, so I know we have a gap here to fill, only last week i was asking cash game players what we could do for them, so its on the list

Cheers Rob

[smashedagain]

Fml. Don't give anymore away as my wife is already looking at property around Nottingham.
I actually love my life in Scunthorpe lol

[ManuelsMum]

I don't want to play in the type of game that has people in it who care much about rake.

[david3103]

Are the cash game regulars not 'looked after' by the influx of recreational players attracted into the club by tournaments?

[KarmaDope]

Nice post OP.

Now please go back, edit it, and halve them all to account for the 50% tax on all income.

Not profit, income.

[smashedagain]

Nice post OP.

Now please go back, edit it, and halve them all to account for the 50% tax on all income.

Not profit, income.

do you pay supertax on your blogging fee as well Adam?

[Skippy]

Nice post OP.

Now please go back, edit it, and halve them all to account for the 50% tax on all income.

Not profit, income.

I was going to post this, but I looked it up (http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000258&propertyType=document#P49_2736) and it turns out that it only goes up to 50% after they are raking £4m per quarter, which I doubt they are.

[kinboshi]

Nice post OP.

Now please go back, edit it, and halve them all to account for the 50% tax on all income.

Not profit, income.

I was going to post this, but I looked it up (http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000258&propertyType=document#P49_2736) and it turns out that it only goes up to 50% after they are raking £4m per quarter, which I doubt they are.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000258&propertyType=document#P134_10540

(links to the figures)

[smashedagain]

lol. some nosey gits about. will we be publishing the dtd accounts next.
do some of you forget how badly poker players were treated pre dtd days. lets be thankful and recognise a good thing when we have it. i dont care if the place makes or loses as long as present staff and owners stay at the helm and continues to provide the best cardroom in europe.

[scotty77]

Say you're playing a hypothetical 1/2 game with 10% rake up to £7. Lets take some conservative numbers; 20 hands an hour, an average pot size of £50 (for example a raise to £8 with 2 callers a £13 cbet called and no more action), a game that runs from 8pm to 4am.

5 X 20 X 8 = £800

If you sat in a game every single night with a guy who sat down, won £800 and never lost how quickly would you get tired of seeing him? At an 8 handed table that's half a stack per person per night. If you took every day you've played poker and added £100 to your bottom line how much richer would you be?

For a comparison online rake is usually 5% up to $3 (~£2) usually with around 30% rakeback.  I know that casinos have to pay dealers (minimum wage + your money in tips) and wait-staff (minimum wage + your money in tips) and generally have to provide food (at vastly inflated prices) and drinks (sometimes free). I'm sure heating and lighting can get expensive and hell we all want to make a profit. I'm a free market advocate, I'm happy for people to charge what the market will bear, I just feel that in this case consumers are grossly ill informed about the true costs of the product they are purchasing (there's a reason the drop box is hidden under the table). I'm hoping that recreational players (and regs too) start caring more about the rake, realise how much damage it is doing to their bankroll and change the market so that it will no longer bear such a heavy cost.

Hi

I have read this. Your figures are only overstated by about 25% which is not bad for a person that feels the need to actually start a brand new thread on this subject. You also should really break down the costs that your huge contribution in rake pays for (after gaming tax,dealer, chip runner, valet, drinks). Clearly you feel you are being taken advantage off/ripped off. Please come and ask for me at reception if you ever pass by my club again and I will give you an accurate breakdown personally.

One thing I would say on this matter, is that we now have a great promotion for online regs (online fpps spend in club) and for live tourney players (final table leaderboard), so we should have something for our cash game regs, i have left this till last because its harder to track than online player and live tourney play, but its on the list to do (I admit, its been on the list for a long time). Im fact, you can argue that cash game regs dont get looked after as much as tourney players by Dusk Till Dawn, as they have had £350k added so far this year in sats and comps, so I know we have a gap here to fill, only last week i was asking cash game players what we could do for them, so its on the list

Cheers Rob

Vegas style reward card machines??

But yeah I can never understand the criticism DTD gets.  The way the club is run and treats its members is second to none and is the reason why other UK venues have had to pull up their act in recent times.  I very much doubt that the G would have attempted the Goliath without DTDs influence on the live UK poker scene. 

When most online rooms are showing falling traffic, live poker in the UK is still going very strong and DTD is a big part of that.

[zerofive]

 

[DungBeetle]

I'm not sure there is much money in people providing live poker venues as it is to be fair.  Rake is moaned about, but most players don't drink and there is heating, lighting, salaries etc to pay for.  Do you expect live venues to provide a game for you at a loss?  If you are a winning player why shouldn't the venue take a cut because they facilitate your profession?

[Pyso]

I think we all agree that the rake is just a necessary evil.

I accept it as the tax I pay for playing the game. By the way, when I say the rake is bad I just mean bad in a "bugger, we have to pay it" sense, not bad that DTD charges it, because I understand that they have to and there's no getting round it.

DTD provides a brilliant place to play poker and I would hate it if it ever went away. I know I've been critical of the tournament structures (ok, and the toilets) but I have also been very complimentary about the dozens of things they do so brilliantly and long may it continue.

And that can only happen with rake I'm afraid.

I understand why Rob Yong gets upset at people posting negative articles about DTD when he went to so much expense and time to set it up, but beneath all the perceived negativity I think there is some helpful feedback in there too and Rob is smart enough to know this.

I'm sure the place will continue to evolve and set the benchmark for European poker.