Expose hand ruleing

[boldie]

Am I missing something here?

Oppo shoves the flop and you tell the dealer "I'm not folding". Surely that means you call and have turned your cards over as it's an all-in situation?

yes but as in by showing my cards saying this is not a fold

I was a little confused by other people's reaction to this. Would be nice to get Rich to clear this one up again, though I'm sure I had a similar conversation with him once. "I'm not folding," after the bet has taken place can't be binding. He has not said "call," and he has not influenced the action. If he were to say "if you go all-in, I'm not going to fold," then this could be construed as binding. If this is incorrect, please explain why.

But "I'm not folding" after your oppo has shoved means you're calling, no?

[dik9]

Action was on Lee when he said "I aint folding" then flipped his cards over. As he can't raise the All-in, and he has stated that he isn't folding, then his only other option is calling, hence all-in situation where flipping the cards on their backs is the correct thing to do (no penalty).

If he had said I am not calling to an all-n and flipped his hand would be dead. If he said I am not calling and other people were to act then his options are raise or fold.

It's a positive negative if that makes sense?

There are no written rules regarding this, but we have to use some common sense or everyone would be speaking double dutch, and no one would know what the action was.

Anything else could be construed as a stroke, verbal is binding. I am not saying that my decision would be right either btw, but that IMO is the fairest ruling and that's what it's all about

[boldie]

Action was on Lee when he said "I aint folding" then flipped his cards over. As he can't raise the All-in, and he has stated that he isn't folding, then his only other option is calling, hence all-in situation where flipping the cards on their backs is the correct thing to do (no penalty).

If he had said I am not calling to an all-n and flipped his hand would be dead. If he said I am not calling and other people were to act then his options are raise or fold.

It's a positive negative if that makes sense?

There are no written rules regarding this, but we have to use some common sense or everyone would be speaking double dutch, and no one would know what the action was.

This is what I thought.

[zerofive]

"I'm not going to fold," would be closer. "I'm not folding," is the same as me saying right now, "I'm not clicking the 'post' button." Whether it is my intention to do so or not, I am not currently doing it. I still think "I'm not going to fold," is the same thing as, "I'm going to sign that contract." You haven't actually declared an action, and you haven't acted out of turn, so I don't see anything wrong with the verbal side of things. Only mistake is exposing your hand in a Gala cardroom.

[dik9]

When action is on you when you stated it, then the only reason for saying it would be to get a read or get the opposition to flip his cards first assuming you've called.

Saying it and flipping is pretty binding don't ya think?

[boldie]

"I'm not going to fold," would be closer. "I'm not folding," is the same as me saying right now, "I'm not clicking the 'post' button." Whether it is my intention to do so or not, I am not currently doing it. I still think "I'm not going to fold," is the same thing as, "I'm going to sign that contract." You haven't actually declared an action, and you haven't acted out of turn, so I don't see anything wrong with the verbal side of things. Only mistake is exposing your hand in a Gala cardroom.

If taken like that it sounds like something someone pulling a stroke would say TBH.

[boldie]

sigh, beaten to it by the mighty mr9

[zerofive]

When action is on you when you stated it, then the only reason for saying it would be to get a read or get the opposition to flip his cards first assuming you've called.

Saying it and flipping is pretty binding don't ya think?

Well this is a bizarre situation in itself. Of course I appreciate your argument, but in this scenario it's pretty clear to me that he's confirming that the exposure of his cards is not a fold. In a normal cardroom, it's not out of the realms of sensibility to declare the hand live with the option to fold still open, obviously penalising for the intentional exposure of cards. Had the cards not been exposed, then it's way closer and I would agree that there is a case for enforcing the action to prevent angleshooting.

[zerofive]

"I'm not going to fold," would be closer. "I'm not folding," is the same as me saying right now, "I'm not clicking the 'post' button." Whether it is my intention to do so or not, I am not currently doing it. I still think "I'm not going to fold," is the same thing as, "I'm going to sign that contract." You haven't actually declared an action, and you haven't acted out of turn, so I don't see anything wrong with the verbal side of things. Only mistake is exposing your hand in a Gala cardroom.

If taken like that it sounds like something someone pulling a stroke would say TBH.

Completely agree that exposing both cards is bad form by the way. I'm not defending the action, I'm just a little surprised to see people expecting it to be binding.

[dik9]

but in this scenario it's pretty clear to me that he's confirming that the exposure of his cards is not a fold.

So if it's not a fold, then it is call?

Exposing a called hand in Gala means dead then yeah

[zerofive]

"My exposure of the cards is not a fold, I am still making my decision."

[dik9]

"My exposure of the cards is not a fold, I am still making my decision."

But you stated that you are not folding, decision made.

[zerofive]

Let's say a player was faced with a big bet in the closing stages of a tournament and has a mountain of chips, and the only way to cut them down and count them out means that some of them will cross the betting line, and he clarifies with the dealer whilst counting out his stack that any chips that cross the line should not be considered an action, "I'm not calling." Does this mean he is bound to a raise or fold?

[dik9]

You could of course argue, After flipping your cards, that you could be saying "I am not folding ..... I am just trying to get a read", then it changes lol. Hand would not be declared dead but the penalty after the hand maybe disqualification ..... ya takes ya choice.

[dik9]

Let's say a player was faced with a big bet in the closing stages of a tournament and has a mountain of chips, and the only way to cut them down and count them out means that some of them will cross the betting line, and he clarifies with the dealer whilst counting out his stack that any chips that cross the line should not be considered an action, "I'm not calling." Does this mean he is bound to a raise or fold?

Completely different