Vegass Handddss

[SuuPRlim]

$10/$20 NL

4 handed.

CO opens to $80 ($6k). I flat  on the btn ($7k), sb calls ($10k) bb folds (nit)

Fop ($260)  .

chk. chk. I bet $180. SB calls, CO folds.

Turn ($560) Ah

He leads for $400. I raise to $1,080 he calls.

River ($2,740)

He checks, I bet $2,100. He calls

Sb is a good, solid player, can be a touch stationy but plays pretty good and reads hands well from what Ive seen.

Do we  like this line over i) flatting turn and flatting river, ii) flatting turn and raise/folding the river, iii) raising turn and chking back river (puke)

do remember it is 4handed.

[SuuPRlim]

whats the river? 3b pre >>> call.

sorry edited

I know this is true in theory, but I really dont think its the best play deep 4handed live, or at least for the way I play it certainly isnt

[pleno1]

well then id say

fold > 3bet>>>> call.

[paulhouk03]

are all the mid- high stakes games short handed (3-6)?

[cambridgealex]

Never folding pre here

[SuuPRlim]

calling is 100% fine imo, 3betting is fine, folding is shamefully nitty but fine if you wanted to, I think this is one of the fundamental differences of live cash - online cash, how much money you CAN make by peeling these spots, speshly 300bb's deep. Personally I like to peel here, sometimes I would 3bet it but as a stnd in this spot i'd need a specific reason to 3bet and peel the rest of the times. I also like to peel kJ, QJ, 89s, 77 etc, I don't like to peel hands like Q6s, 34s etc and would prolly select and hand from the initial list (A9/KJ etc) to 3bet an opener with a very low Fold to 3bet, and something like Q7s/J4s etc to 3bet someone who i think will fold to a lot of 3bets.

No 10/20 games almost always FR, 25/50 and 50/100 spends a lot fo time 5-7 handed as not always people around, but certain players usually drive the games to fill up pretty swiftly. I think in this instance it was a secondary table and 7 handed, with 3 people away for quite a while.

[DMorgan]

Villain 2 is a fish that just lost a 4k pot QQ < TT that was 4bet pre and all in on T high flop. Villain 1 has only been sat for 5 hands, I've been playing in these games for a couple of weeks and don't recognise him

$5/$10

Villain 2 (MP) $600
Hero (SB) $covers
Villain 1 (BB) $1k

Hero has  

4 folds, Villain 1 limps, HJ raises to $40, Hero calls, Villain 2 calls, Villain 1 calls

Flop ($160)

 

Hero bets $100, Villain 2 raises to $260, Villain 1 raises to $580 all-in, 1 fold, Back to Hero, Villain 2 has $700 behind

More interesting if Villain 2 is playing $1.5k or more but still, kind of a sigh spot

[pleno1]

calling is 100% fine imo, 3betting is fine, folding is shamefully nitty but fine if you wanted to, I think this is one of the fundamental differences of live cash - online cash, how much money you CAN make by peeling these spots, speshly 300bb's deep. Personally I like to peel here, sometimes I would 3bet it but as a stnd in this spot i'd need a specific reason to 3bet and peel the rest of the times. I also like to peel kJ, QJ, 89s, 77 etc, I don't like to peel hands like Q6s, 34s etc and would prolly select and hand from the initial list (A9/KJ etc) to 3bet an opener with a very low Fold to 3bet, and something like Q7s/J4s etc to 3bet someone who i think will fold to a lot of 3bets.

No 10/20 games almost always FR, 25/50 and 50/100 spends a lot fo time 5-7 handed as not always people around, but certain players usually drive the games to fill up pretty swiftly. I think in this instance it was a secondary table and 7 handed, with 3 people away for quite a while.

I think its actually the opposite, I think its a big mistake that people make. Sometimes trying to think too much about something makes you make a -ev decision. Thinking about it from purely a game theory stance I think calling is bad. I think there has to be a pretty big variable to make it good, but I am actualyl sturglling to find one, like for example a big squeezer in the blind, and we can call and play dep, but theres much better hands to be calling pre with. It seems a good hand to depolarize our range in this spot/game.

[Honeybadger]

calling is 100% fine imo, 3betting is fine, folding is shamefully nitty but fine if you wanted to, I think this is one of the fundamental differences of live cash - online cash, how much money you CAN make by peeling these spots, speshly 300bb's deep. Personally I like to peel here, sometimes I would 3bet it but as a stnd in this spot i'd need a specific reason to 3bet and peel the rest of the times. I also like to peel kJ, QJ, 89s, 77 etc, I don't like to peel hands like Q6s, 34s etc and would prolly select and hand from the initial list (A9/KJ etc) to 3bet an opener with a very low Fold to 3bet, and something like Q7s/J4s etc to 3bet someone who i think will fold to a lot of 3bets.

I am pretty sure that flatting here with A8o is not going to make you money (unless you have a specific read on the CO that you are planning to exploit postflop, and even then it is only ever going to be marginally profitable esp if either of the blinds are remotely competent squeezers). Calling with A8o is what the fish would do. And also the supposedly 'good players' who overestimate their edge and so think they can get away with playing offsuit raggy Aces because they are so much better than their opponents. I would have a pretty damn wide flatting range on the BTN here when 300bbs deep. But it would not usually include A8o.

[SuuPRlim]

solid points from a theoretical angle and you're both right ofc but 300big deep in a live cash game I disagree completely that we don;t make money peeling here, I dont say necessarily that be don't show a slightly higher profit from a 3bet, and there is a ton of reasons why I would 3bet. but when the guys in the blinds flick it in with J5o and 84s pretty hard to convince me we wont be winning some money here

[pleno1]

calling is 100% fine imo, 3betting is fine, folding is shamefully nitty but fine if you wanted to, I think this is one of the fundamental differences of live cash - online cash, how much money you CAN make by peeling these spots, speshly 300bb's deep. Personally I like to peel here, sometimes I would 3bet it but as a stnd in this spot i'd need a specific reason to 3bet and peel the rest of the times. I also like to peel kJ, QJ, 89s, 77 etc, I don't like to peel hands like Q6s, 34s etc and would prolly select and hand from the initial list (A9/KJ etc) to 3bet an opener with a very low Fold to 3bet, and something like Q7s/J4s etc to 3bet someone who i think will fold to a lot of 3bets.

I am pretty sure that flatting here with A8o is not going to make you money (unless you have a specific read on the CO that you are planning to exploit postflop, and even then it is only ever going to be marginally profitable esp if either of the blinds are remotely competent squeezers). Calling with A8o is what the fish would do. And also the supposedly 'good players' who overestimate their edge and so think they can get away with playing offsuit raggy Aces because they are so much better than their opponents. I would have a pretty damn wide flatting range on the BTN here when 300bbs deep. But it would not usually include A8o.

yeh basically what i was trying to say.

[Honeybadger]

solid points from a theoretical angle and you're both right ofc but 300big deep in a live cash game I disagree completely that we don;t make money peeling here, I dont say necessarily that be don't show a slightly higher profit from a 3bet, and there is a ton of reasons why I would 3bet. but when the guys in the blinds flick it in with J5o and 84s pretty hard to convince me we wont be winning some money here

We can agree to disagree Dave. And obviously we can't look at a HEM database for live poker and see whether raggy offsuit Aces are money makers in this spot, so we'll only ever be guessing. But I am pretty sure you are wrong in a practical sense, not just a theoretical sense. Having the CO open to 4x rather than 3x makes it even more difficult to turn this into a profitable spot (not that this is an unusual CO open raise size in live games of course). I really think that you are falling into the trap of overestimating your postflop edge if you think you can make up for having such a terrible hand through superior postflop play. Or maybe you are simply underestimating just how crappy a hand like A8o really is. It works neither as a good value hand postflop, nor as a good semi-bluffing hand either (mainly since it is offsuit). I would add a TON of suited stuff into your flatting range before I started adding offsuit crap.

Now if you gave specific reasons why you thought you could turn a profit flatting with A8o here then that would be different. Having a good read on/control over the CO is one reason (as long as it is not just a case of saying something non-specific like "oh I think I can outplay this guy postflop"), 'knowing' that neither blind is squeezing due to some live tell would be another, as would having psychological ascendancy/momentum on a table. This might allow you to adjust your range and play A8o for a profit. But, without any specific reason to adjust, your default should be to either 3bet or fold (3betting would be game flow/image dependent), regardless of being 300bb deep. In general, a big leak of a lot of many otherwise good players is that they call raises with far too many hands (or at least the wrong sort of hands). Partly this is through not quite understanding the true relative strength/playability of certain hands. And partly it is to do with having a little too much confidence in their ability to make up for sloppy preflop hand selection through outplaying the field postflop.

[pleno1]

sorry to sound like a broken record but, +1.

[DMorgan]

Villain is new to the table, pretty much readless

$5/$10

Villain (UTG+1) $1100
Hero (BTN) $covers

Hero has  

1 fold, Villain raises to $30, 4 folds, Hero calls $30, 1 fold, BB calls $20

Flop ($90)

 

BB checks, Villain bets $60, Hero raiises to $180, Villain calls

Turn ($450)

 

Villain bets $200, Hero calls

Riverr ($850)

 

Villain all in for $650

[Honeybadger]

Re Dan's 54s hand...

Fold preflop. I know you'll hate this advice, and it's no biggy so whatever.

Flop... just flat the cbet. You should probably not have a raising range on this flop from a theory point of view, and since you are readless there is no reason to depart from theory.

Turn is weird because villain has taken a fishy out-of-tempo line. We don't have any idea what this line means from him, whether it is a ridiculous bluff or if he's simply hit the Jack after calling with overs and/or a FD and is betting cos he now has a pair. I'd probably flat since stack sizes are good for this. But I'd be calling any river.