spew or genius?? levelling itt

[jgcblack]

This just happened at dtd on 1/2.. Typing on my phone so gimme a break.

Still a little tilted but feeling calm n good enough to play on.

Cash 1/2 dtd

background - we have been at the table a few orbits, playing a fee hands and winning 80-100bb in non showdown pots. Aggressive image but probaly percieved as TAG-ish.
Villain in the hand has just been caught by reg 'Tom' when he cc cc donked pot on AK244 board, Tom calls with AQ and is good for a W.

The hand

Utg makes it £7, call, call, call and we find  in the bb.

We make it £45 playing 600~.. Utg folds, utg+1 villain calls, fold, fold.

Flop (£111)


We cbet £55 with a plan to 'let' villain float us and check shove almost any turn card. Maybe im being optimistic here but I think that the villain  is going to be floating us here way too much..

Turn £221


We check, expecting him to bet any draw, pair, bluff.. But think he's good enough to see this coming if we check one time, sometimes.

River  £221


We check, now 100% that he doesn't have any house (xcept 33), 6, better one pair hand and that he will value cut himself with these!

He bets £260..

Wwuday?
(We have 550~)

I realise were probably winning like 90+% of the time but I realise that check shoving is really strong...

However in game I was sure he would snap with any pair.


??

[George2Loose]

This just happened at dtd on 1/2.. Typing on my phone so gimme a break.

Still a little tilted but feeling calm n good enough to play on.

Cash 1/2 dtd

background - we have been at the table a few orbits, playing a fee hands and winning 80-100bb in non showdown pots. Aggressive image but probaly percieved as TAG-ish.
Villain in the hand has just been caught by reg 'Tom' when he cc cc donked pot on AK244 board, Tom calls with AQ and is good for a W.

The hand

Utg makes it £7, call, call, call and we find  in the bb.

We make it £45 playing 600~.. Utg folds, utg+1 villain calls, fold, fold.

Flop (£111)


We cbet £55 with a plan to 'let' villain float us and check shove almost any turn card. Maybe im being optimistic here but I think that the villain  is going to be floating us here way too much..

Turn £221


We check, expecting him to bet any draw, pair, bluff.. But think he's good enough to see this coming if we check one time, sometimes.

River  £221


We check, now 100% that he doesn't have any house (xcept 33), 6, better one pair hand and that he will value cut himself with these!

He bets £260..

Wwuday?
(We have 550~)

I realise were probably winning like 90+% of the time but I realise that check shoving is really strong...

However in game I was sure he would snap with any pair.


??

What does this mean?

[EvilPie]

With George on this. Not quite sure what the question is?

I think you're asking if you should shove or not when the question should actually be whether to call or not.

Given the statement below:

However in game I was sure he would snap with any pair.

and the fact that there are only 4 pairs that you'd like to see, 7 pairs that you wouldn't like to see and one that'd be a draw then I'd say no you shouldn't shove. I'm discounting 22 here btw because he obv doesn't call with that.

I know there's blockers to the pairs you don't want to see but there's still enough of them as well as plenty of 5x type hands to make this a call or fold spot.

[GreekStein]

This just happened at dtd on 1/2.. Typing on my phone so gimme a break.

Still a little tilted but feeling calm n good enough to play on.

Cash 1/2 dtd

background - we have been at the table a few orbits, playing a fee hands and winning 80-100bb in non showdown pots. Aggressive image but probaly percieved as TAG-ish.
Villain in the hand has just been caught by reg 'Tom' when he cc cc donked pot on AK244 board, Tom calls with AQ and is good for a W.

The hand

Utg makes it £7, call, call, call and we find  in the bb.

We make it £45 playing 600~.. Utg folds, utg+1 villain calls, fold, fold.

Flop (£111)


We cbet £55 with a plan to 'let' villain float us and check shove almost any turn card. Maybe im being optimistic here but I think that the villain  is going to be floating us here way too much..

Turn £221


We check, expecting him to bet any draw, pair, bluff.. But think he's good enough to see this coming if we check one time, sometimes.

River  £221


We check, now 100% that he doesn't have any house (xcept 33), 6, better one pair hand and that he will value cut himself with these!

He bets £260..

Wwuday?
(We have 550~)

I realise were probably winning like 90+% of the time but I realise that check shoving is really strong...

However in game I was sure he would snap with any pair.


??

What does this mean?

well seeing as TAG means Tight Aggressive, I'm guessing it means just that.

[EvilPie]

Are you saying you shoved?

I wouldn't call it genius.

Unless it worked of course.

[George2Loose]

This just happened at dtd on 1/2.. Typing on my phone so gimme a break.

Still a little tilted but feeling calm n good enough to play on.

Cash 1/2 dtd

background - we have been at the table a few orbits, playing a fee hands and winning 80-100bb in non showdown pots. Aggressive image but probaly percieved as TAG-ish.
Villain in the hand has just been caught by reg 'Tom' when he cc cc donked pot on AK244 board, Tom calls with AQ and is good for a W.

The hand

Utg makes it £7, call, call, call and we find  in the bb.

We make it £45 playing 600~.. Utg folds, utg+1 villain calls, fold, fold.

Flop (£111)


We cbet £55 with a plan to 'let' villain float us and check shove almost any turn card. Maybe im being optimistic here but I think that the villain  is going to be floating us here way too much..

Turn £221


We check, expecting him to bet any draw, pair, bluff.. But think he's good enough to see this coming if we check one time, sometimes.

River  £221


We check, now 100% that he doesn't have any house (xcept 33), 6, better one pair hand and that he will value cut himself with these!

He bets £260..

Wwuday?
(We have 550~)

I realise were probably winning like 90+% of the time but I realise that check shoving is really strong...

However in game I was sure he would snap with any pair.


??

What does this mean?

well seeing as TAG means Tight Aggressive, I'm guessing it means just that.

Well I know what TAG means. What does aggressive image but probably TAGish mean? Why not just say TAG?

[SuuPRlim]

not read the thread yet, I'm take a stab at spew

[jgcblack]

Prob a fair assessment Dave..

I did check shove the river, on the logic that after monstrously under repping our hand we will probably get called here by all one pair hands as villain is clearly a Jesus running blue badge holder.

I realise its really thin..


So we did play good and just did our other bollock on the cash table.
With As
On ...

Vs 10d..

gg sir.

[George2Loose]

I Don't play much live cash and am not as good as some on here but it just sounds to me like your trying to over complicate and out think total spackers and in the process doing your dough when you can sit back, relax, order a crispy chicken salad, nut peddle and get paid

[SuuPRlim]

mmmmm

without being critical, I think you massively over-complicate hands, I have a simple rule i like to follow (speshly in live poker) and that is that I dont rely on someone else doing something unless I have VERY good reasons to think he is going to do it. Like here you think you're getting floated loads, but you've been at the table >5 orbits? Whenevr you start making assumptions on people's tendencies without enough info then you are basically guessing and this will often lead to really silly leveling spots because you start to take hands out and put hands in to his range based on his actions being different to what you expected. This hand for example, you say OTT he is clever enough to see the c/j on the turn so he checks back to ?delay float? then on the river he finally ?bluffs? and we want to jam for value? If you'd just kept it simple and bet bet and kept betting till it looked like there is a chance you dont have the best hand you'd have had a much less stressful experience in this hand.

Back to basics imo, poker is pretty simple most of the time

chances are in this hand he was pot controlling something like 55 and made a straight.

As it happens I don't HATE chking the turn, but betting is way better as once you chk the turn your range basically becomes C/R's and give ups, so he's rarely betcalling worse and will bet thin(ish) for value pretty much never as most of his value range does poorly vs you turn c/r's. we get some value from his "stabs" but this is on the pretense he IS floating the flop a lot and I could never make that assumption

When you bet you keep a bit of your preflop and flop "air" in, hands like 9Ts and AK etc, I think him jamming the turn over your bet is so gross but its happy days when he calls. I can't think of any reason to jam here, calling seems reasonable as we can beat a few Value bets.

[Pugwashed]

Lol, I was at the table. It definitely felt super thin at the time. Vs this villain, as wide pre and as stationy as he was post I'd just bet 3 streets on most runouts. Think you're just levelling yourself here into the thin value c/r

[jgcblack]

Thanks pug, I know u told me this..

However u have to factor in that not everyone runs like you in the 1/2 ( +1k first hour)



u hear 'our tom' also lost 1k in back to back pots with AK vs K7 and AK vs A4... Sighy

[Pugwashed]

Fwiw, all that session did was get me even after a live downswing. Just to put that 'run good' in perspective.

Still kinda sick that he gets there with 52o. I think the turn is pretty close to a mandatory bet in this hand from you, he has a 6 sometimes but he has enough 7x, 4x and random straight draws that you get value from by betting, and if you're plan is to check/shove turn then almost every hand you stack doing this you stack anyway by going bet/bet/jam

[jgcblack]

Dave, I'm going to admit that I might have a crush... on your skillz.

You're absolutely right im sure.. tbh i think my mistake in this pot is my bet sizing.. I should be making the flop more 55 - 111 is clearly flawed.

Think it should be something like 90-130 in order to set up a pot sized turn shove.. obv getting plenty of folds but almost all value after a flop 'flat'.. if we get shoved/ raised on the flop we're re-evaluating.. but we got a  and so vs this villain may just be shipping the beans in.

Yes I am trying to be 'clever' in lots of poker spots that can be simplified.. but my online 'education' is definitely helping play hands much better throughout and obv having a plan seems so obv now but before wasn't a consideration (its like a mario 1up! - level up)


I don't think the villain in this case was passing any turn bet that wasn't a shove and obv a shove isn't a good move really.. so we're looking at a hand where the optimum line was probably cbet small (like we did) then cc cf.. which sounds gross but when he bets over pot on river.. its so weighted to hands that beat us that we could be uber genius if we slow ourselves down a little, notice this and then cf to the 'overbet'.

this doesn't change that tonight we just couldnt win, even when AI on the turn with As on vs .. which works out at 70.45%... but c'est la vie.

At home with my bro n mate, getting the geniune russian wodski n coke down us, COD-ing it up! (binkmepls - add me, PS3)

ty all.

[pleno1]

I thought we were bluffing him off a straight!

<3