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Author Topic: KQ- To call the All in or not?  (Read 970 times)
Vinodh
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« on: April 16, 2012, 01:35:37 PM »

Hello All,
This is my first post in PHA. I would like to explain a hand I played in DTD £150 tourny two weeks before. I would like to know how you would have played this hand. I will post the outcome of what I did later.
I have just started playing live tournys about 9 months now.. Thats about me

Live DTD £150 comp. Day 1a.
I was just moved to this table about 6 hands before. The third hand I played in the new table, I was in the button with 42cc, folded to me, put in a min raise called by both the blinds. Flop comes     three diamonds  . Blinds checked, I c/bet, SB called, turn  three clubs. SB bets 4k from a 11k remaining stack. I called. River -  . SB jammed, I called. He mucked and I had to show my 42cc for my flush.
So, there goes my image, if at all I had one.
Level 12 - Blinds 1k/2k with r.a 300. My effective stack before this hand- 65k.
About villian - never seen/played with him before.His stack was about 47k by the time we played this hand. No read as such on any one including the villian.
The Hand: I am in MP and dealt  . It was folded to me and I raised to 4600. Villian (3rd to my left) flat called.  Blinds fold.
Pot- 14900. We both see the flop  .

I checked. He bet 5k. I flatted.
Pot- 25900- Turn giving us 2 pair. I checked again for deception ( mistake may be, should we bet here? if so, how much). He checked behind.
River -  which completes a straight draw.

I was so confident that my 2 pair was winning there so I bet out 15k into 26k pot. Villian dwells, tanks and announces ALL IN. Had I called, I would be left with just 16k ( after calling his AI) in the last level of the day.

WHAT SHOULD I DO? Do we call/ fold?

Please bear my ignorance, but I never really planned anything as to what to do post flop...definitely not planned what to do if there was an all in.
Any criticism is most welcome as I am really interested in improving my game further....

Many Thanks
Vinnie








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rbolt2
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2012, 01:51:08 PM »

Don't really like the check call on the flop, you were the aggressor so I would lead out an amount close to half the pot. His bet is pretty weak and could mean pretty much anything. As played I would definitely lead the turn and get him to define his hand more, betting around 19k so that he becomes pot committed if he calls.
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cambridgealex
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2012, 01:59:37 PM »

betting flop unless you have a good reason not to, same with turn.

If you check call flop, you should check turn though.

But I prefer just a simple bet/bet/bet line with strong hands. Keep it simple.

the river doesn't really complete a straight draw. It's Q75r when the King comes theres no betting so I wouldn't say "the straight draw gets there".

anyway, calling river for sure.
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Vinodh
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2012, 02:19:45 PM »

Many Thanks Alex and rbolt for your comments.
As per both of you- betting the turn is a MUST. Point taken. As I said I never really thought anything what would I do. When he bet the flop, I put him on a possible set (Q/5/7) and thats the reason why my river bet was also about 15k into 26k ( atleast i thought I had show down value). Never at one point did I think what if he goes all in..
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cambridgealex
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2012, 02:25:44 PM »

Many Thanks Alex and rbolt for your comments.
As per both of you- betting the turn is a MUST. Point taken. As I said I never really thought anything what would I do. When he bet the flop, I put him on a possible set (Q/5/7) and thats the reason why my river bet was also about 15k into 26k ( atleast i thought I had show down value). Never at one point did I think what if he goes all in..

that's ok, you don't always need to have a plan. i.e. in this case, you're always better the river, 100% of the time, so you can decide what to do if you get raised afterwards.

However if you're deciding between call/fold/bet sort of decision, then you need to have a plan as to what to do if you get raised.
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2012, 02:26:52 PM »

Hi Vinnie,

as for the hand, chking the flop isn't terrible, but like Alex says without a good reason (you didn't mention one) you should just bet here as stnd, you have top pair, a good kicker (he would assumably raise AK pre-flop) so you just want to bet your hand for value. Also, thinking about how your hand is perceived if you raise pre-flop and BET you can still be bluffing/have no hand at all, once you chk-call the flop you almost always have a hand of SOME value, so the big downside to checking this flop is that you define your hand more in his eyes (admitedly here you do actually have one of the BEST hands you would chk-call with which is good) and you give up the betting lead OOP with a hand that is about as strong as you'll have here.

Once you check the flop and call, the turn you should DEFO check as your hand has perceptibly gotten weaker now, it looks like, when you c/c the flop you have a weak-ish 1p hand, so he could well be persuaded to bet again, and a lot of his bluffs might have picked up some outs (AJ, AT, 89ss etc) so chking the turn is good here.

Once he checks back you should DEFO bet the river, when he jams, it's pretty gross, I do think though that AJ would bet the turn some % of the time and I also think QT is possible. I call now you're getting a decent price and I'd just chalk it up as a rough hand if you get shown AJ.

ONe final thing.

Please bear my ignorance, but I never really planned anything as to what to do post flop...definitely not planned what to do if there was an all in.
Any criticism is most welcome as I am really interested in improving my game further....

Goes without saying this is where you went wrong (I don't think it would have made much of a difference here) but you should always have a plan, it's not actually that hard to formulate a rough plan in your head for how a hand will play out either (the cards that come change it up hugely ofc so it needs to be flexible) but try think when you are faced with a decision,

IF I BET - am i betitng for him to call with worse (this is a good spot to try think of some legitimate hands he could have that can call you - thinking back to pre-flop as well to try deduce what hands he can/can't have)

If I CHK - am i chking to call, or to fold (or raise even) if you're chk/calling try think about WHY, is he the type to bluff? will he think a worse hand than yours is the best and bet it for value?

Just thoughts like this that will make your decision making a bit mire concise, and when you get into horrible spots like this one on the river I think you'll find you just have a bit clearer picture of what is happening and might just make these decisions a LITTLE easier.

I agree though that as a default, unless you have a great reason, just bet your hand for value all the way through this hand.

gl
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Vinodh
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2012, 02:40:08 PM »

Hi SuuPRlim, many thanks for your wonderful insight.. infact, you had READ me completely in your post.
BET, BET and BET for value is my mantra from now on :-)
as far as what happened in this hand after he went all in , I thought, tanked, tanked even more,  couldnt bear the thought of losing the pot if called wrong just before the close of play and CHICKENED out to fold. He showed me AQ, fist pumped and taunted me saying, that how you play poker :-(
To this minute, I am cursing myself why did I fold but hey, thats how we all learn havent we?
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2012, 04:00:55 PM »

Hi SuuPRlim, many thanks for your wonderful insight.. infact, you had READ me completely in your post.
BET, BET and BET for value is my mantra from now on :-)
as far as what happened in this hand after he went all in , I thought, tanked, tanked even more,  couldnt bear the thought of losing the pot if called wrong just before the close of play and CHICKENED out to fold. He showed me AQ, fist pumped and taunted me saying, that how you play poker :-(
To this minute, I am cursing myself why did I fold but hey, thats how we all learn havent we?

yeh sucks. UL

Don't get me wrong, you shouldn't BET BET BET for value in every spot lol, but in a spot where you have a really good hand, which is prolly about the best hand you will have it's always a good default to just BET.

Just think things through as much as you can and try come up with good reasons for everything you do.
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