€5/10 Marbella Cash 50bb

[WotRTheChances]

Playing in a €5/10 game, taking a bit of a shot (wanted to play €2/5, but the list was tilt long). Decided to have a couple of 50bb bullets.

Lost the first bullet in orbit one with on when a guy clicks back the flop, I jam and obviously we get there, but he's flopped a boat with .

On to the second bullet and orbit two.

Raise fold , then get a couple of hands later (playing €450 everyone at table covers)

MP opens to €25 (he has opened to €35 in his two other previous opens)
I flat next to act
BB peels (seems like a fish from observations of hands so far, peeling fairly wide)

FLOP (€80)


BB donks €30, OR raises to €85

At this point I feel the BB is never ahead of me, he can have 45, T8 sort of hands, possibly 6x and gutshots. I don't think OR ever has complete air, but he has a lot of FDs, worst Tx hands in his range, some over pairs, but I didnt feel he was super-strong, so discounted sets just through timing tells, body language etc. Also i'm 50bb deep and i've flopped top top in Spain.

I call, BB calls

TURN (€335)


BB checks, OR bets €185

This is a fairly large bet (given my remaining stack of €340, which he is definately aware of having counted it before betting). Clearly not bet-folding, his range is still as previously stated, but he seems very uncomfortable when I tank for a bit and observe him. His hands were over his mouth and he couldnt keep still. I'm never exactly sure what these things mean, but to me he didnt seem to be loving life as I contemplated a call.

I jam for €340, BB folds, OR snaps

Do we think I should just fold flop?
Do we ever fold turn after calling €85 OTF?
Which cards do we fold on if action is the same? (clubs have to be terrible, 7's arent great, nor are J's or Q's)
Do we ever 3b the flop? (seems pretty tez)
How much do live tells matter in these spots (esp given my lack of genuine body language knowledge)?
Or do we just get it in because we have top top in what we assume will be a pretty spewy game with 50bbs?

[SuuPRlim]

Do we think I should just fold flop?

I wouldn't ever, but defo wouldn't be terrible

Do we ever fold turn after calling €85 OTF?

Not this turn card or any like it

Which cards do we fold on if action is the same? (clubs have to be terrible, 7's arent great, nor are J's or Q's)

Honestly not sure, clubs I guess....

Do we ever 3b the flop? (seems pretty tez)

I honestly don't know why you think it's tez "keeping his bluffs in" etc fair enough but you're playing very shallow and like you say the guy is never completely air-balling so if he folds the weakest hands he has it's not the end of the world as they'll have some equity anyway - also you look really drawy yourself so if he's raising to see where he is with something like 88 then he might talk himself into hero-ing. Also if he has a draw himself he is never folding.

How much do live tells matter in these spots (esp given my lack of genuine body language knowledge)?

If something happens and you have no idea what it means, I'd count it as irrelevant in the short term, but defo try piece it together when you see his cards, like if he has 666 here that's a legitimately useful bit of information, likewise if he has 89dd etc

Or do we just get it in because we have top top in what we assume will be a pretty spewy game with 50bbs?

I think that's what my thought process would have been tbh

No idea how the game was playing but I'd have considered 3betting preflop in a lot of scenarios.

Flatting and getting it in now seems very reasonable as well, maybe preferable to 3b jamming the flop, I think it's close.

[smashedagain]

I read every word you ever write Dave but that red gives me a headache

Don't fall into the "we are in Spain and they are all crap" trap. Y

[david3103]

I read every word you ever write Dave but that red gives me a headache

Don't fall into the "we are in Spain and they are all crap" trap. Y

me too, but if you click n drag to highlight it all, it becomes very readable in bluer on white background :-)

[FrenchieBeni]

given board texture/bad visibility + 3way, calling flop is worst option i think.
given stack sizes, prolly goes jam flop > fold >>call.

I have no experience in live tells.
As played jamming turn is best imo (reminds me of this spot here http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=57105.0)

[WotRTheChances]

Flatting flop allows BB fish to flat with his weak range and leaves us roughly a pot-sized bet, which we are happy enough to get in on any non-club turn. Also giving OR some reverse-implied odds if he has AK or AQ. OR can also still barrel all of his draws OTT.

Agree there are a few other spew turns, but stacks are awkward to just jam the turn, I think there are arguments for folding, calling, raising or jamming the flop... seems like a spot where none are really bad and none are that great.

[SuuPRlim]

but stacks are awkward to just jam the turn, I think there are arguments for folding, calling, raising or jamming the flop... seems like a spot where none are really bad and none are that great.

all the more reason to jam the flop no?

[bobby1]

I read every word you ever write Dave but that red gives me a headache

Don't fall into the "we are in Spain and they are all crap" trap.

This

 its quite a ridic thing to think. What do you think their view of you is after the hand you got it in drawing dead and this hand?

[SuuPRlim]

its quite a ridic thing to think. What do you think their view of you is after the hand you got it in drawing dead and this hand?

not sure this is all that fair, it is defo true that in general spanish players are looser than other nations (sepshly england) so I think assuming the games are going to play quite "spazzy" isn't a bad assumption. What IS bad ofc is the "well they are all "spantards" and shit so i'll win" which, as we know is not only really arrogant but pretty inneficient as a strategy.

The hand he gets it in drawing dead is, by anyone's standards french/russain/bulgarian completely stnd and pretty unlucky on Tom's behalf, and there isn't anything particularly spazzy about this hand either?

also tbf to Tom, the only thing he said that can be interpreted as slightly digging at the spanish is this.

Also i'm 50bb deep and i've flopped top top in Spain.

 

Which is pretty tongue in cheek.

[bobby1]

You have missed an important part of the post imo tho Stu. Wanted to play 2/5 but took a shot short stacked at 5/10 instead which intimates that isn't the level that he wanted/was comfy playing at with the funds available, hence the short buy in, why not play the smaller game?

Did the fact the mindset 'These Spanish are (insert whatever mildly jingoistic/xenophobic/stereotypical) opinion of their ability affect the game selection in a kind of, these are rubbish, lets take a shot at the *****?

If it did then it is probably a bad thing.

As for I've tptk in Spain, if that's the thought process then its pretty clear the above has happened.

If you have just barrelled a nut flush draw on a paired board( I know, I'm a  nit ), did you give him any credit for a hand the way he had played it because you had already decided these were prob going to be rubbish?

After that does call pre, call flop look strong or weak?

 If you have already dubbed the BB a fish after what is very few hands, how do you think they have tagged you?

The only way you can think its a 'spewy game' after so few hands is to decide that before any evidence, how does that help you play?

[WotRTheChances]

I took a shot because these are the types of games you can make big spin-ups in. A lot of bad peels from shallow stacks with marginal hands. I entered the table between then sb and button and chose not to post to observe for an orbit. I'd played a couple of sessions previous to this and this very loose peely brand of play was seen from 50-75% of the player pool.

In the hand I've c-bet into 2 opps and had it clicked back to 110, clearly jamming playing 50bb ainec, playing the hand any other way is terrible..

I'm not making massive generalisations about Spanish poker players itt, but out here peoples ranges pre and post are just a decent chunk wider (from my brief experiences).

Did the fact the mindset 'These Spanish are (insert whatever mildly jingoistic/xenophobic/stereotypical) opinion of their ability affect the game selection in a kind of, these are rubbish, lets take a shot at the *****?

If it did then it is probably a bad thing.

As for I've tptk in Spain, if that's the thought process then its pretty clear the above has happened.

If you have just barrelled a nut flush draw on a paired board( I know, I'm a  nit ), did you give him any credit for a hand the way he had played it because you had already decided these were prob going to be rubbish?

After that does call pre, call flop look strong or weak?

 If you have already dubbed the BB a fish after what is very few hands, how do you think they have tagged you?

As explained its pretty irrelevant if I give him credit for a hand, its more a case of if I don't think villain is competent I could consider folding, but anyone decent has semi-bluffs in their range.

I don't think I've been tagged in any way, I've raise-folded once and got stacked for 50bbs in a standard spot.

I've got 2 days previous and 3 orbits of evidence...... not sure your post is really constructive tbh. It's and interesting sport and you are just berating me for noting that your average Spanish player appears to be very peel-happy pre and a bit spewy post.

Also I meant stack-sizes were a bit awkward to jam flop, jamming 425 over 85.... But its probs correct on reflection.

[rfgqqabc]

How much do live tells matter in these spots (esp given my lack of genuine body language knowledge)?
Or do we just get it in because we have top top in what we assume will be a pretty spewy game with 50bbs?

I know we don't have very much experience in the live pokeys, but at least twice you've blown my mind with things you've either done or picked up on, and I'm 85% sure these were both in the same night.

I think this probably answers the qn, I'd just put it in.

[SuuPRlim]

You have missed an important part of the post imo tho Stu. Wanted to play 2/5 but took a shot short stacked at 5/10 instead which intimates that isn't the level that he wanted/was comfy playing at with the funds available, hence the short buy in, why not play the smaller game?

Did the fact the mindset 'These Spanish are (insert whatever mildly jingoistic/xenophobic/stereotypical) opinion of their ability affect the game selection in a kind of, these are rubbish, lets take a shot at the *****?

If it did then it is probably a bad thing.

As for I've tptk in Spain, if that's the thought process then its pretty clear the above has happened.

Pretty sure he wanted to play 2/5 but the waiting list was so long he thought "fuck it lets play 5/10" I think his internal degeneracy was the culprit over his disrespect from Spanish poker ability.

If you have just barrelled a nut flush draw on a paired board( I know, I'm a  nit ), did you give him any credit for a hand the way he had played it because you had already decided these were prob going to be rubbish?

Come on, he's got 40big blinds and he's flopped the NUT FLUSH draw + some fold equity vs a wide range of hands, he's getting that in vs Ivey or Bill Ruffin and you know this

Listen I'm 100% behind the "don't disrespect your opponents" line, in fact, if anyone has ever read posts on here (Belton's diary specifically) or my blogs you'll know I champion it, and I pretty much never use the word "fish".

But you're 100% jumping on Tom here when he really hasn't demonstrated any of the stuff, if he had, I would be instantly +1'ing your criticism,

[bobby1]

I'm not really jumping on anyone, it was simply an addition to your summary which imo missed out what could have been factors to the way the hand and thought process' could be tarnished by the 'im in Spain with tptk, these are spewwy mentality. When in the short amount of hands played at this table the hero himself could look to be the very same.

How does flat pre, flat flop look to you from someone playing a short buy in, followed by push that will obv get called?

I hope the guy called with 10 king and we win the pot but if the pot was lost and you stood up and left, how do you think the Spanish players are going to pigeon hole your stay at the table. They would also be wrong to put you in a stereotypical bracket too given such a small example.

Just a thought really.

[SuuPRlim]

thing is though, anyone who has ever played in spain will know that, in general the games do play VERY loose (nothing derogatory on the standard of the players) much much looser than UK games on the whole, so if Tom is privy to this knowledge then surely assuming the games will play quite "spewy" is a GOOD assumption no? Better than making no assumption when you have some reliable information, it would be better in this spot to assume the game will be very loose until proven otherwise than assume it's "solid" till proven loose?

I have to admit I'd share the same thoughts on the TPTK thing, not that "iv got top-top and everyone is shit" but I know from my experience playing in spanish games there is loads more action so people on the whole are more likely to commit more money with weaker TOP-PAIR hands than they are in the UK.

Lots of stuff is made of poker assumptions like "he is old so he's a nit" "he is spanish so he's spewy" "he is young so he's going to be 3betting light" but it really is worth noting that often these assumptions come from quite reliable stereo-types so as long as you're not arrogant about them i.e "This old guy must be terrible" etc and constantly trying to adjust them, as a starting point to go from they are often quite reliable.


One thing though, you have introduced me to the word  "jingoistic" which I think is a fantastic word!