ovebretting teh turn

[cambridgealex]

You're sounding more and more like John Black every day Pleno I'm sorry to say.

He played a hand with T5o recently too remember? And remember what you told him about T5o

FOLD PRE!

[Pugwashed]

i dont think dont 3bet x hand is a very valid argument though, spot > hand in most spots.

A lot more so when you're pretty short and 3bets are not likely to get flatted so playability is not a huge problem, its nice to have blockers but its not as much of an issue. You're definitely deep enough here to where 3bets will be flatted a decent amount so playability is definitely something that should be part of how you randomize your 3b bluffs

[Ducky7]

imo you didnt do anything wrong in this spot if you are deciding to play this hand, a lot of people have responded to folding the 10 5 however we are not raising for value in this spot but raising to put pressure on our opponents and trying to take the pot down in position? The board is tough for your opponent to call down with and you are winning the pot with raw aggression in position. You are putting pressure on as the chip leader and on the turn it leaves him with a really tough decision and an awkward chip stack. Plus we are playing the player not the cards

[Pugwashed]

imo you didnt do anything wrong in this spot if you are deciding to play this hand, a lot of people have responded to folding the 10 5 however we are not raising for value in this spot but raising to put pressure on our opponents and trying to take the pot down in position? The board is tough for your opponent to call down with and you are winning the pot with raw aggression in position. You are putting pressure on as the chip leader and on the turn it leaves him with a really tough decision and an awkward chip stack. Plus we are playing the player not the cards

Aaron?

[Honeybadger]

Ducky7, this is your first post and it is great to see new guys contributing to threads. Welcome to blonde. You have got some stuff wrong in your post, and I'll try to explain what is wrong with your thinking.

imo you didnt do anything wrong in this spot if you are deciding to play this hand, a lot of people have responded to folding the 10 5 however we are not raising for value in this spot but raising to put pressure on our opponents and trying to take the pot down in position?

It is clear that Pleno is 3betting preflop as a bluff, rather than for value. The key point though is that this bluff, whilst it will of course work sometimes, is not profitable. Pleno has not given any indicators in his hand history that this is a spot where bluffing with any two cards would be profitable. If he had given specific reasons why he believes he can profitably get completely out of line at this particular moment vs this particular opponent then we could at least consider whether or not this bluff is profitable or not. But he hasn't given any such reasons. So there is no reason to believe that this spot is a good one. Randomly bluffing with terrible cards without specific reasons is not the right way to play profitable poker.

Plus we are playing the player not the cards

This is one of those poker cliches that sounds lovely but doesn't actually mean anything in this particular hand. Pleno has not given a single read on this player so we cannot be 'playing the player'.

[cambridgealex]

Equity when called please.

Suited or connected at least.

[Ducky7]

Ducky7, this is your first post and it is great to see new guys contributing to threads. Welcome to blonde. You have got some stuff wrong in your post, and I'll try to explain what is wrong with your thinking.

imo you didnt do anything wrong in this spot if you are deciding to play this hand, a lot of people have responded to folding the 10 5 however we are not raising for value in this spot but raising to put pressure on our opponents and trying to take the pot down in position?

It is clear that Pleno is 3betting preflop as a bluff, rather than for value. The key point though is that this bluff, whilst it will of course work sometimes, is not profitable. Pleno has not given any indicators in his hand history that this is a spot where bluffing with any two cards would be profitable. If he had given specific reasons why he believes he can profitably get completely out of line at this particular moment vs this particular opponent then we could at least consider whether or not this bluff is profitable or not. But he hasn't given any such reasons. So there is no reason to believe that this spot is a good one. Randomly bluffing with terrible cards without specific reasons is not the right way to play profitable poker.

Plus we are playing the player not the cards

This is one of those poker cliches that sounds lovely but doesn't actually mean anything in this particular hand. Pleno has not given a single read on this player so we cannot be 'playing the player'.

Thanks for the welcome, and i had presumed he had information on the player, which would make this play more profitable even though he hadn't stated it, I guess i missed out putting that in my initial quote. However what you have said has been taken on board, when i was writing that i wasnt thinking about the play in the long run but about this hand specifically

[Ducky7]

Aaron?
[/quote]

no im not Aaron ha

[SuuPRlim]

Mr. Honeybadger said something a few threads ago that is extremely apt.

The maths is extremely unforgiving when you have no outs, and is actually surprisingly forgiving if you have even a slither of equity.

This is referring to pre-flop ofc, not the turn.

[Honeybadger]

Mr. Honeybadger said something a few threads ago that is extremely apt.

The maths is extremely unforgiving when you have no outs, and is actually surprisingly forgiving if you have even a slither of equity.

This is referring to pre-flop ofc, not the turn.

It applies to the turn just as much IMHO.

[pleno1]

Ok.

I guess should go into more detail about why I wanted to 3bet, guy was nitty and this was his biggest buy in, he did however open alot and had won quite recently aa v kk vs me, although I've been really aggro I've shown down aa, qq ad ajs at showdown, this with a combination that the bubble is coming up soon and the fact his 4b6b range is super narrow and my at the time thought that I had an we post flop and a lot of boards he just wouldn't be able to do anything on made me want to 3bet. I dont think pre flop is questionable at all, would 3bet here 100% if given the hand and situ, I didn't go into detail because I asked for opinions on the tub rather than preflop or flop which I'm both v v happy about and probably 'aaroned' ... Unable to convince otherwise..

On the turn it's a one liner and a flush has complete, with pot to stack I can never bet then and jan river with normal sizibgs so 23 was tryin to 1)set up a perceived river shove and 2) fold out everything but the top of his rave and sometime aq with qc. I figured his value range = 33,44 and ofc flushes whilst the rest of his range included some pairs, aq aj a10 and perhaps some other hands. I also chose o overbettong evade I think it massively decreases the chance of him c/jammin the turn as a semi bluff and even with the time he does get stubborn with ax we have a 5 sometimes clubs and a 2 as save cards whilst vs his sets we have clubs ad a 2 as save cards.

Furthermore I think people look at average chops etc far too much and will fold so so much here where above average chips and close to the bubble on a relatively soft table on one of the bigger games on their schedule. 

[SuuPRlim]

Mr. Honeybadger said something a few threads ago that is extremely apt.

The maths is extremely unforgiving when you have no outs, and is actually surprisingly forgiving if you have even a slither of equity.

This is referring to pre-flop ofc, not the turn.

It applies to the turn just as much IMHO.

yh I guess it does. Making the turn play pretty fine imo, although I still maintain I'm not sure we really need to overbet the turn.

[WotRTheChances]

the question to you guys first is why not

If you are 3betting with close to the worst hand you can get dealt then what you are essentially saying is "this is such a great bluff spot that I can profitably 3bet 100% of my range". Now every now and then you find situations where this is true, and if you were able to give extremely detailed reads/dynamics etc to explain why at the precise moment in time that you played this hand table conditions were such that you could profitably 3bet bluff with 100% of your hands... well fine. I guess. But otherwise you should be using randomisation by equity to construct your bluffing ranges. And T5o is right down the bottom of the equity spectrum, both with regard to hot and cold equity and postflop playability (i.e. ability to use postflop equity to semi-bluff profitably).

couple people said they didnt like the line here, so thought id post for mroe opinions, we are 900 left, out of 5k starts and 700 get paid.

average is 55k, i have an aggro image.

thoughts? and il say my thoughts after people replied.

http://www.handconverter.com/hands/1769856

Completely agree with everything Honeybadger has said. Don't really see how this spot is so good to 3-bet that T5 becomes a 3-bet, even though villain can peel and you may have to play out some streets with this 'hand'.

Also don't really see what the over-bet on the turn achieves. Sure it will get some more combos to fold, AJ AT, some pairs with FDs etc. But do you really get enough hands to fold to this bet-size in relation to how many hands in villains range he would be folding to a standard turn bet-size to make this play +EV? Seems like he has to be calling with quite a decent chunk of his range to a std bet-size and folding almost everything to this one for it to be a good play.

[dakky]

to be fair we can make every straight

[SuuPRlim]

to be fair we can make every straight

we can make all but 1 straight

Which one is it....