Seems Simple, but is it?

[SuuPRlim]

basically what the rabble is asking is lol.

When we bet the turn, do we achieve anything than allow the few% of FD's he's checked to bluff us and put in more money vs 10x?

Can he actually have a value hand to chk/call here WORSE than JJ?

We protect our equity vs some type hands that decide to chk/fold (whilst hoping they get a free river) the turn, but I can't see any other + to betting,

Having said this, checking doesn;t seem great.

[outragous76]

I think he can easily have the same type of hand as you that you beat (77-99).

I think he can have a fd a little more than you do, but agree that it's strange when he checks, unless his plan was to cr (76dd) maybe. Therefore I'd be happy to disappoint him if it was his plan.

Just can't see him checking a T unless he filled up which is obv puke.

Given the reasonable strength of our hand I'm happy to try and get this to showdown. You are kind of under repped given the action pre.

[skolsuper]

Under repped? We have just about the bottom of our range for getting to the turn this way. Not stoved it so could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure JJ is in worse shape than any nut flush draw vs whatever range you want to give villain, unless it's literally just 66-99 which I think would be absurd. I don't even think he has those in his range at all.

[skolsuper]

Btw dave when you said "joke simple spot", you meant simple check right?

[SuuPRlim]

Btw dave when you said "joke simple spot", you meant simple check right?

What I meant was checking doesn't seem great as in my mind it meant I couldn;t call any river bets but I can't think of a single good reason to bet and I was really hoping someone would give me one.

I actually think I could make a decent argument for folding the flop.

[Oxford_HRV]

what I think here is if you know BB is a decent player he will surely have picked up this understanding and I think that he would lead here with 55 and any 10 and is never donk leading his flush draw unless it's AKs cus people play that hand like lunatics, he never has a pair less than 10s because he would know his equity is terrible on this flop, I'm more inclined to say when he checks the turn he is holding only AKs or 10x

[Killerkilsby]

I see people donk lead this kind of flop with 5x, to see if they can take it down.

I think you could bet to keep 5x in if he wants to fish til the river. If not it saves you getting sucked out on by A5 when river comes 5 or A etc.

I would prob check behind and analyse river bet.

[Honeybadger]

Checking back the turn serves two purposes that trump every other consideration.

First, it makes it as likely as possible that you will be able to turn over your hand to claim the pot. Showing down a winning hand strengthens your image in all manner of subtle and intangible ways.

Second, you get an opportunity to show a certain level of respect to an opponent who you perceive as a good player. This is very much undervalued. It is part of the art of establishing yourself in a game; creating a chilled and respectful dynamic between you and another winning player. "I'm not here to fuck with you, no need to fuck with me. Let's leave each other out of it". Mastering this skill is a bit of an art form and requires both parties to have a certain level of social intelligence. It is hugely beneficial, since it allows several strong players to profitably inhabit the same game without getting in each others way.

This is the most profitable dynamic for every winning player.

[SuuPRlim]

fwiw, I think most 5x's would be a chk/fold on the flop here if I was this guy.

Possible exception of A5, (or indeed J5/Q5/K5 should he have these, which he prolly wont) but A5s with a bd FD he very well good donk the flop with.

I'll tell you what happened as I think it's kind of interesting.

I chked the turn back, River was a total blank, he checks....

Wat we doing now?

[Honeybadger]

Strong argument for checking back the river again and ensuing that you get to showdown your hand... for all the reasons I stated a couple of posts ago.

Plus you guarantee seeing his hand which can be very beneficial considering he has taken a non-standard line.

If every hand was a vacuum then betting the river for value is best. But we are not playing in a vacuum so it is worth considering the future EV of creating the 'right' dynamic between you and another good player. Plus let's make no bones about it, it is thin value - if he is a good player that is. Obviously against a bad player/cally wally I'd be betting the river, and would have bet the turn too for that matter.

[SuuPRlim]

Plus let's make no bones about it, it is thin value - if he is a good player that is.

I think it's REALLY thin.

What's calling, 77/88/99? A5? I really do think the only thing we beat is a flopped FD that tried to iso vs the SB OTF and decided to just give up OOP vs me on the turn.

The other concern is a leave myself a little venerable to get bluffed here, I think whereas it's a bit odd it's pretty feasible still for him to show up with a TEN here, mostly because of the dynamic the SB adds to the hand OTF

[Honeybadger]

I think it's REALLY thin.

Yes. But not because:

I really do think the only thing we beat is a flopped FD that tried to iso vs the SB OTF and decided to just give up OOP vs me on the turn.

This is not exactly true. In fact, once he checks the river, we are usually winning. But the point is that, if villain is a good player, we will rarely get called when we are winning. That's why it is a thin value bet... because whilst we expect to be winning most of the time, we don't expect to be winning most of the time if we bet and get called.

The other concern is a leave myself a little venerable to get bluffed here, I think whereas it's a bit odd it's pretty feasible still for him to show up with a TEN here, mostly because of the dynamic the SB adds to the hand OTF

This is of course a valid additional consideration.

[Honeybadger]

Can you post results for this hand please, Dave?

[fatboyslow]

fwiw, I think most 5x's would be a chk/fold on the flop here if I was this guy.

Possible exception of A5, (or indeed J5/Q5/K5 should he have these, which he prolly wont) but A5s with a bd FD he very well good donk the flop with.

I'll tell you what happened as I think it's kind of interesting.

I chked the turn back, River was a total blank, he checks....

Wat we doing now?

Ooh ... Ooh !

Think I knows this one  ......

Well, not sure Dave would do it but I check back on the basis that I'll only get a call off some one beats me,

Having said that I don't even play 10-20-40 PENCE blinds never mind $ so what do I know

[SuuPRlim]

I check back and he has KTo