Poll: Your views required please on Re-entry tournaments

[Doobs]

Given everybody has a positive EV in tournies these days doesn't everybody win? 

More seriously as a traveller to DTD  with a family, same day reentries are way better than next day ones.  Dunno why it favours better players, surely spewtards as likely to reenter as better players, maybe even more so as they will bust more easily?  Would love to see an analysis of the skill level of your typical reentering player though realise it is v difficult

[skolsuper]

I was working on the assumption that everyone had a =ROI for saying that deeper pockets didn't gain an influence, what you're saying is that better poker poker players are going to gain more profit over weaker players by being able to play what is affectively 3.something tournaments in the time/space we could traditionally play 1. Which I think goes without saying that if you have a losing expectation in a £1k (for e.g) you're going to lose more buying in 4 times than you will buying in once.

No my point was that even if you still only buy in once your expectation goes down if better players are allowed to re-enter.

[MANTIS01]

I've always thought one of the differences between tournaments and cash poker is the romance of being the last man standing. I can't think of any sporting tournament where you can re-enter after being knocked out. So any sort of re-entry back into a knockout tournament compromises the integrity of the event imo. Nobody would think it proper if Man U could re-enter the FA Cup after playing badly and losing. Fortune wasn't on their side or they didn't play well enough and now they're out, end of. But what if they paid to re-enter and it 'boosted the prizepool' for the rest? None of the other surviving teams would care one bit about that and it would still be gg Man U. As a poker player if you only care about boosting the prizepool and not about the romance of the tournament why not just play cash instead? Personally if the comp is guaranteed at say £100k I'm already happy to play for that pot and don't think boosting it by a few k is worth compromising the romance of the competition for.

What's more a lot of regular joes do stuff fearing their tournament life is on the line. Not having their tournament life on the line will impact the integrity of the game to some degree. You could fold because you decide some regular joe wouldn't jam with nothing early in a £500 comp. But guess what, this guy just won £10k on roulette so his first bullet is aggro. Without knowing how many bullets your oppo has in his gun you are without information. The great thing about tournaments is no matter how affluent people are in the real world everybody is on a level playing field. Again this notion is compromised because with re-entry how affluent you are in the real world does have some influence on your chances of lifting the trophy.

Poker venues are meddling with a lot of fundamental aspects of poker tournaments and many of them are mainly in their own interests. I remember the last debate was about a no deals rule which I also don't agree with. The argument for no deals was because it taught players to 'go for the win' and people weren't forced into deals. Now I read that if the comp isn't finished at a certain time all players are forced to deal. Pretty ironic if you ask me.

[outragous76]

so wealthy people dont have advantages in cash games?

errrrr ok

sometimes you just try to hard Mantis

cheesecake IMO

[MANTIS01]

so wealthy people dont have advantages in cash games?

errrrr ok

sometimes you just try to hard Mantis

cheesecake IMO

I said tournaments are good because it's more of a level playing field. I quite agree affluent people have an advantage in cash.......which only adds weight to that point??

Sometimes you don't try hard enough.

Chocolate fudge cake imo.

[MC]

As a poker player if you only care about boosting the prizepool and not about the romance of the tournament why not just play cash instead?

So a tournament player who is just concerned about money should learn a completely different game because they don't care about the romance of the tournament too much?

[  ] makes sense

[Mohican]

I played the Grand Prix VI at the end of April. I'm a low stakes social player and I can afford to buy-in to tourneys like this every now and again(£55). It gave me the chance to play in a bigger prize pool tourney than I'd normally be able to with out having to try to satellite in. This is the value in tourneys like this for me. I'm happy having the one bullet but I like the fact others have the opportunity to stick more money in the prizepool. The fact I only have one bullet doesn't influence my play and hopefully I'll be on the receiving end of some looser/spewy play and pick up chips. I like the re-entry concept and hope that more of these are run.

[Tommy Bingham]

If you don't have re-entry, your gona have an issue with DTD hitting there Guarantees. 10-20% of the field re-entering makes alot of difference to the club. And if DTD reduce their guarantees, the runners fall to.

[typhoon13]

If you don't have re-entry, your gona have an issue with DTD hitting there Guarantees. 10-20% of the field re-entering makes alot of difference to the club. And if DTD reduce their guarantees, the runners fall to.

+1

[Skippy]

4 points:

1) More reentries = larger fields= bigger prize pools but more variance. From a theory point of view you need a bigger bankroll to play a tournament with 600 entries than you do with 400 entries.

2) Lots of people saying reentries make tourney tougher because all the good players re-enter but the fish don't. This might have been true on the old Full Tilt, where you could make multiple entries from the get go and have to play against 1 of me but 8 Shaun Deebs. However, in my experience of playing DTD re-entries, there are far more fish re-entries than there are good players. I don't think they make the fields tougher at DTD.

3) In my opinion they often let people re-enter for too long at DTD. You shouldn't be re-entering 6 hours after the comp starts. Stop re-entering when the starting stack is 40bb or more. After that it becomes more of a "rebuy" feel where people can successfully keep reentering to build a stack. 20bb re-entry's are not bad-beat insurance, they're a different kind of comp.

The rebuy stacks getting shorter are the main cause of people just wanging it in and it becoming a shove fest. If people want to open shove 100bb blind, then good luck. They'll soon get bored of picking up 1.5bb, until they run into AA.

4) Run another DTD rebuy! Nothing wrong with a good rebuy from time to time. I know DTD did their bollocks with the last ones they tried to run, but I thought the format was bad. Didn't they used to do a Wednesday night rebuy that got 300 runners? £20+6 unlimited rebuy, 3 x 30 minute levels, only one add-on, rebuy at starting stack or less (this is where I think they went wrong before), 20 minute levels after that, 2000 chips starting stack/rebuy/add on, 7K guarantee, easy game.

[BorntoBubble]

4 points:

1) More reentries = larger fields= bigger prize pools but more variance. From a theory point of view you need a bigger bankroll to play a tournament with 600 entries than you do with 400 entries.

2) Lots of people saying reentries make tourney tougher because all the good players re-enter but the fish don't. This might have been true on the old Full Tilt, where you could make multiple entries from the get go and have to play against 1 of me but 8 Shaun Deebs. However, in my experience of playing DTD re-entries, there are far more fish re-entries than there are good players. I don't think they make the fields tougher at DTD.

3) In my opinion they often let people re-enter for too long at DTD. You shouldn't be re-entering 6 hours after the comp starts. Stop re-entering when the starting stack is 40bb or more. After that it becomes more of a "rebuy" feel where people can successfully keep reentering to build a stack. 20bb re-entry's are not bad-beat insurance, they're a different kind of comp.

The rebuy stacks getting shorter are the main cause of people just wanging it in and it becoming a shove fest. If people want to open shove 100bb blind, then good luck. They'll soon get bored of picking up 1.5bb, until they run into AA.

4) Run another DTD rebuy! Nothing wrong with a good rebuy from time to time. I know DTD did their bollocks with the last ones they tried to run, but I thought the format was bad. Didn't they used to do a Wednesday night rebuy that got 300 runners? £20+6 unlimited rebuy, 3 x 30 minute levels, only one add-on, rebuy at starting stack or less (this is where I think they went wrong before), 20 minute levels after that, 2000 chips starting stack/rebuy/add on, 7K guarantee, easy game.

Interesting point seems to be a comp that casinos will run but not DTD

In sheffield for a while now the biggest game of the week has been an equivelent comp run by 1 of two different casinos!

I personally dont tend to play them much but they are a good spin up and surely DTD would get lots of travelling players for a similar game with a guarentee of say 10-15K if they had 100-150 individual buy ins then that is £1000 for a wednesday comp in rake for them and also 100-150 gamblers in the casino for spins and cash games!

[Dave 1961]

During the WSOP the Prague poker festival will be announced for Nov/Dec. There will be 3 day ones and it is a 3300 Euro Re-entry event. The reason we have chosen this is that we have had substantial feedback from players that the benefits far outweigh the cons. I know that this is always going to be a contentious subject but given the boost to the prize pool and players travel costs I believe it will be part of the poker circuit for quite some time.
 What I believe is a more interesting question are bounty tournaments, we are considering running a 1500 Euro bounty as these are becoming much more popular events

[AndrewT]

3) In my opinion they often let people re-enter for too long at DTD. You shouldn't be re-entering 6 hours after the comp starts. Stop re-entering when the starting stack is 40bb or more. After that it becomes more of a "rebuy" feel where people can successfully keep reentering to build a stack. 20bb re-entry's are not bad-beat insurance, they're a different kind of comp.

Totaly agree with this - IMO the whole point of a re-entry is so that you get a decent chance of some play, and aren't left scratching your balls after 10 mins. I think re-entries should be no more than 2 hours - if you've fired all the bullets you're able to after that time then it's just not your day.

[pokerfan]

3) In my opinion they often let people re-enter for too long at DTD. You shouldn't be re-entering 6 hours after the comp starts. Stop re-entering when the starting stack is 40bb or more. After that it becomes more of a "rebuy" feel where people can successfully keep reentering to build a stack. 20bb re-entry's are not bad-beat insurance, they're a different kind of comp.

Totaly agree with this - IMO the whole point of a re-entry is so that you get a decent chance of some play, and aren't left scratching your balls after 10 mins. I think re-entries should be no more than 2 hours - if you've fired all the bullets you're able to after that time then it's just not your day.

Re-entry has to be available to the end of late reg imo.

[MANTIS01]

Dave 1961 can you quantify this substantial feedback from players in favour? Have you got results from a poll that you can publish for eg?

In our particular poll a lot of players are voting in favour of no re-entry. Slightly more are voting for re-entry but I don't see this as substantial feedback in favour of such a change. In fact our forum poll prob expresses the views of the better players along with venue supporters. So I would be genuinely interested in the results if you were to poll every runner in your upcoming festival. I think an average player votes against re-entry into big tournaments. If that isn't the case there are a lot of average players with big bankrolls out there imo. Think the re-entry format is the desire of venues and the small % of better players rather than 95% of average players, the value players. Anyway a few questions for this debate...

a) If most players love the prizepool being boosted by re-entry why limit re-entry?

b) Ref the expenses. Travelling to one multi-day comp is -Ev compared to loading up 6 comps at home. Does the concept of re-entry now make it a +Ev coup for the average player? In fact better players being able to re-enter makes the situation even worse doesn't it?

c) If we stake a horse into a big comp and he goes on to take it down under his own steam on a personal second bullet do we feel fine about it? Think I would feel sore seeing him fistpump the trophy and the big comedy cheque, but in actual fact his second bullet has nothing to do with me or the original stake right?

d) Is cash poker a completely different game? Think eg rugby union and hungy hippos are completely different games.