Andrew Feldman

[SuuPRlim]

Problem is woodsey it spoils the games for everyone - the weaker players have a worse time and the action is spoilt for the regs.

It would be great if we could all do these things, never play a hand vs another good player, snap get out of the game when the spot leaves, berate and insult the weaker guys to get all the action for ourselves, never play short-handed to start games. Would be wonderful, we'd all make a ton more money, problem is though there WOULD BE NO GAMES if we all acted like this, so all the regs give a little, show respect to the weaker players so they have a nicer time, play short handed with other good players for a little so the games start up give a bit of action and this is the sole reason the games ccan run.

Someone who acts like Feldman comes along, allows everyone else to give the action that creates the games and give none for himself, not just him there are loads like him.

Game selecting, i.e not taking X seat because your OOP to a good player, deciding to quit this one game because it seems tough and so on is good professional practice, albeit a little nitty.

Do you really think it would be wonderful to berate and insult weaker players to get action for yourself? Or wonderful if you never went up against good players again to get better and test yourself? Your post suggests all players think it would be great to act like this but resist doing so for the good of the game. I think the reality is the vast majority of players just wouldn't do this stuff because it's not in their nature and not how they want to approach poker. The game of poker will retain it's universal appeal whatever strat individual players use against each other. I mean being nice to fish so you can take their money and berating fish to take their money is just different strategies to take their money, and we don't rightly know which approach has what actual effect.

What's far more damaging to the image of poker is all the universally publicised lying and stealing that goes on. I reckon that turns a lot of people off. Yet I always read you guys saying how many of these people eg Brad Booth are "good guys". If you are so worried about the attraction of poker to new players I don't know why you think these people are good guys when they are spoiling it for you, and spoiling it to a much greater degree than some bumhunter.

mmmm, think you got the wrong vibe of my post Mantis, I do not htink it would be wonderful to do those things, the reason I don't do them is because it's not how I think people should behave, so even if it was socially acceptable to act like this I personally wouldn't. What I meant was it would be lovely for me to live in an online poker community where I could refuse to ever start games, ever play a hand vs someone good etc as I'd just make fucking way more more money. the reason I dont is because it's bad for the game, but for the players and in the long term bad for me as well. If I was selfish or short-sighted or just plain out didn't give a shit about the longevity of internet poker than I could go around doing what Feldman did for years and I might have turned my £30 into £4,000,000 as well.

What you need to understand which is why this kind of stuff gets people's backs up so quickly is that by "bum-hunting" he isn't just only taking action from weak players and making way more money that way, he is taking money off the regs who are trying to improve and support online poker - an industry that he makes his living out of. That's why it's so infuriating.

As for your point about the image of poker I couldn't agree more, you can prolly find 10 blogs or articles written by me in the last 6 months where I say basically the exact same thing as you. I said it earlier ITT but got flamed by Kimber for it but I am actually currently putting a lot of my effort into a venture I am hoping is going to go a long way towards improving this (and make me money lets not pretend I'm doing it for much other reason, but it is something that I'm passionate about because I love gambling and am always distraught by the mianstream perception of the entire industry, not even just poker)

Also want to make a point that ^^^^ is very different to game selecting.

[MANTIS01]

Problem is woodsey it spoils the games for everyone - the weaker players have a worse time and the action is spoilt for the regs.

It would be great if we could all do these things, never play a hand vs another good player, snap get out of the game when the spot leaves, berate and insult the weaker guys to get all the action for ourselves, never play short-handed to start games. Would be wonderful, we'd all make a ton more money, problem is though there WOULD BE NO GAMES if we all acted like this, so all the regs give a little, show respect to the weaker players so they have a nicer time, play short handed with other good players for a little so the games start up give a bit of action and this is the sole reason the games ccan run.

Someone who acts like Feldman comes along, allows everyone else to give the action that creates the games and give none for himself, not just him there are loads like him.

Game selecting, i.e not taking X seat because your OOP to a good player, deciding to quit this one game because it seems tough and so on is good professional practice, albeit a little nitty.

Do you really think it would be wonderful to berate and insult weaker players to get action for yourself? Or wonderful if you never went up against good players again to get better and test yourself? Your post suggests all players think it would be great to act like this but resist doing so for the good of the game. I think the reality is the vast majority of players just wouldn't do this stuff because it's not in their nature and not how they want to approach poker. The game of poker will retain it's universal appeal whatever strat individual players use against each other. I mean being nice to fish so you can take their money and berating fish to take their money is just different strategies to take their money, and we don't rightly know which approach has what actual effect.

What's far more damaging to the image of poker is all the universally publicised lying and stealing that goes on. I reckon that turns a lot of people off. Yet I always read you guys saying how many of these people eg Brad Booth are "good guys". If you are so worried about the attraction of poker to new players I don't know why you think these people are good guys when they are spoiling it for you, and spoiling it to a much greater degree than some bumhunter.

mmmm, think you got the wrong vibe of my post Mantis, I do not htink it would be wonderful to do those things, the reason I don't do them is because it's not how I think people should behave, so even if it was socially acceptable to act like this I personally wouldn't. What I meant was it would be lovely for me to live in an online poker community where I could refuse to ever start games, ever play a hand vs someone good etc as I'd just make fucking way more more money. the reason I dont is because it's bad for the game, but for the players and in the long term bad for me as well. If I was selfish or short-sighted or just plain out didn't give a shit about the longevity of internet poker than I could go around doing what Feldman did for years and I might have turned my £30 into £4,000,000 as well.

What you need to understand which is why this kind of stuff gets people's backs up so quickly is that by "bum-hunting" he isn't just only taking action from weak players and making way more money that way, he is taking money off the regs who are trying to improve and support online poker - an industry that he makes his living out of. That's why it's so infuriating.

As for your point about the image of poker I couldn't agree more, you can prolly find 10 blogs or articles written by me in the last 6 months where I say basically the exact same thing as you. I said it earlier ITT but got flamed by Kimber for it but I am actually currently putting a lot of my effort into a venture I am hoping is going to go a long way towards improving this (and make me money lets not pretend I'm doing it for much other reason, but it is something that I'm passionate about because I love gambling and am always distraught by the mianstream perception of the entire industry, not even just poker)

Also want to make a point that ^^^^ is very different to game selecting.

Nah I got the vibe of your post bud, I was just messing with you. Struggling to swallow the notion that Feldman is a panto villain in a world full of saintly online regs trying hard to protect and improve the industry thou.

[SuuPRlim]

its not a case of Feldman is the villain and we're all the good guys selflessly trying to improve the online poker world, it works like this... (these number pulled completely out of thin air but you'll get the jist)

Spose my hourly rate is £50 p/hour on average, this will be my total play. Now me personally and lots of other regs often play 2-4 handed with only us regulars, now my hourly rate in this game is no where near my average of £50 the reason is because i'm playing short handed with other winning poker players and we're paying rake, so chances are of the 4 of us the best player will be making ~£5 per hour (approx 1/10 of his hourly) (lets arrogantly assume this is me ) so in effect im taking a -£45 p/hour hit to play in this game. Why would I do that? Well recreational players don't like to start games (fair enough) they like to go to the lobby find an open seat as fast as possible, so now when they sit down my hourly increases to £70 p/hour so assuming i play 3 hours with them and 1 hour without building the game I have an average hourly of £53~.

Ok, so what Feldman does/did is he sits down, refuses to play until the weaker players have arrived sso he doesn't have to go through the small losing/break-even/small winning period like everyone else did in order to get the oppurtunity of the £70 p/hour - so during that period where we're all playing taking a £45 hit to our hourly Feldman isn't, he's basically taking money from the regs by doing this.

Not only is this the case but lets spose in the same game the weaker player sits out for 15 minutes, so we keep playing ofc as it's the polite thing to do, yet our hourly goes from £70 to £50, yet Feldman snap sits out and just waits til the guy comes back - not only is this really rude it also just takes money striaght of the regs pockets.

THEN we'e spent 1 hour paying rake to build a good game, he strolls along, blocks one of the seats up then he starts attacking the weaker player, now he has a worse time playing so plays for less time, or more infuriatingly he persudes them to give him HU action, so having contirbuted nothing to building a game for the player he now just immediately steals the action.

What he doesn't realise is if no-one tried to start games/behave well then online poker wouldn't exist - he's not the only person who does this, but he was one of the worst, luckily in HS PLO it's not that bad atm but back in NLHE it's really really bad.  Obv there are other factors to consider in all this where good regs benefit from stuff that he doesn't, but if everyone just started a few games and didn't act like too much of a dick then it would be miles better for every pro/reg/recreational player who plays online poker.  The job of a pro poker player is to provide a good experience to weaker players in return for the best side of the play.

[robyong]

That is is one of the best posts I have read on this forum SuuPRlim.

[NEWY]

The job of a pro poker player is to provide a good experience to weaker players in return for the best side of the play.


[/quote]
Please excuse my ignorance I am not a pro but A BIG  . I will start by sayin I love ur blog and enjoy reading ur comments wether I agree or not I think u convey ur points well. However ..who says that the job of a Poker pro is to provide a good experience to me weaker players. That is only ur opinion. Feldman prob wud say the job of a poker pro is to play weaker players avoid gud players and make as much as poss. to me this seems very sensible. I agree from what been said he may go about it a little selfishly but so wot? It works 4 him and he is only out for his interests as a poker pro out to make money and not c that I am entertained.  I think us weaker players come back cos we love the game and will continue to do so until we run out of money then when we get paid we come back again. It matters not to me how I lose. If u take it politely or if feldman takes it callin me names I get my kicks from jus playin as im sure many others do. the bottom line is I will lose and someone better than me will end up with the money the only diff is feldmans edge is that he doesnt play other regs. I actually dont mind people chattin shit it kinda adds to my fun. I agree u make some good points and in an Ideal world maybe everythin wud happen as u wish but we dont and its a case of diff horses for diff courses. I think u shud focus on wots important and not worry bout us fishes cos we play because we "love the game" only diff is we not as gud at it as others.  FWIW I think Feldman is a very mixed up young man with some issues that need sortin.  I dont particularly like wot I know of him and I think his commentary is JOKE bad. Jesse and lil dave in the booth pleeease. Hope I not spoke out of turn at any point jus thought I shud let u know that whilst we appreciate ur fightin our corner u can relax a little and perhaps focus a little more on strippers wot makes u happy cos we will be ok with or without feldman characters.

PS hurry up and blog more bout vegas please

[NEWY]

Above post was supposed to qoute lil daves post. Sorry new to this....

[jack2off]

Problem is woodsey it spoils the games for everyone - the weaker players have a worse time and the action is spoilt for the regs.

It would be great if we could all do these things, never play a hand vs another good player, snap get out of the game when the spot leaves, berate and insult the weaker guys to get all the action for ourselves, never play short-handed to start games. Would be wonderful, we'd all make a ton more money, problem is though there WOULD BE NO GAMES if we all acted like this, so all the regs give a little, show respect to the weaker players so they have a nicer time, play short handed with other good players for a little so the games start up give a bit of action and this is the sole reason the games ccan run.

Someone who acts like Feldman comes along, allows everyone else to give the action that creates the games and give none for himself, not just him there are loads like him.

Game selecting, i.e not taking X seat because your OOP to a good player, deciding to quit this one game because it seems tough and so on is good professional practice, albeit a little nitty.

I spoke to Jesse May about this slating about 2 years ago at the launch of one of the prem poker leagues (no name dropping honest). Andrew was being slated massive for bum hunting/taking the fish etc etc, however, Jesse (whos opinion Im assuming everyone would have respect for) went on to say that Game Selection is one of the most important skills of poker which a lot of people manage badly. He should not be run down because he picks the players he has an edge over and takes their money. Im assuming that everyone who plays for a living, plays to win money, pay the bills, live a good life etc etc. Seems to me that Andrew had this tied down and a lot of people struggled to do the same thing.

I could name you 10 players off the top of my head, that still are on the circuit relatively big names, still young, and multi accounted or colluded during their so far short poker career (obviously I'm not going to for obvious reasons)

Im sorry and this isnt a dig at anyone, but I put it all down to jealousy! again, that's just my opinion, everyone is entitled to!

[jack2off]

What's the difference between Feldman bum hunting and Hastings/Townsend/South taking millions from Blom?

and sharing 50,000 lines of hand history?

[SuuPRlim]

@Newy - thanks for the kind words I appriciate it, unfortunately Ive been too drunk for too long out here to blog properly however I've been up to a couple of adventures recently so I will be updating soon! prolly in the next 12 hours!!

Good post you've made, and really interesting (loved the bit at the end ) the thing is, which you might not appriciate is that the games are all started by the regs, what I didn't say in my previous post is I actually really like the bits when its 3 regs short-handed trying to get a good game, I dont get much HU action and like short-handed play a ton more plus I have played so much with most of the regs we get into all sorts of silly hilarious spots trying to fuck each other - obviously this isn't great as you're not going to make that much money going ballistic 3handed vs good players. The reason I justify it is because I'll get into better games shortly. Along comes Feldman, he sits himself down, snap sits out so now our 4handed game is 5handed with a dead seat, leaving less room for other people to sit and he doesn't take any of the financial hit we do to start the game, it's really unfair that he gets to profit of us making the games better for him. So my concerns are less for the recreational player and more for myself - luckily though I'm not a dick + I #lovethegame myself so I wanna see everyone having fun, win or lose. Good to hear two sides of this argument though, and gl

Feldman isn't the only one, nor is he even prolly the worst fwiw.

@jack2off - It's pretty obvious you've not read any of my posts so debating with you when i'll have to repeat myself is pretty pointless on my behalf. One question though, how much of his £4m he "won" would he have won if EVERY reg online did what he did and acted like he acted?

The multi-accounting collusion point is ofc correct I could prolly name you 50 but it's not really relevant in any way to the discussion, may as well tell me that you know 13 Vets who put animals down that could have been saved.

Jealousy is ofc rife everywhere, I'm certainly bitter about the fact that whereas I and others do the "right thing" at small expense to ensure the longevity of internet poker, others dont give a fuck and just leach of us, but I don't really care anymore plenty of scummy stuff goes on in every industry but it's slightly annoying when people come on and say "well he's just cleverer than you" when what he actually does is steal from me on a daily basis. - This isn't referring to Feldman, just people who are like him in general.

[SuuPRlim]

What's the difference between Feldman bum hunting and Hastings/Townsend/South taking millions from Blom?

and sharing 50,000 lines of hand history?

they are totally different. sharing HH's is not allowed (against the rules) bum-hunting is completely within the letter of the law.  It's kind of dissapoitning that hastings and crew got away with it even though they were always going to.

Both are always going to happen though, that is just the world.

[Woodsey]

What's the difference between Feldman bum hunting and Hastings/Townsend/South taking millions from Blom?

and sharing 50,000 lines of hand history?

they are totally different. sharing HH's is not allowed (against the rules) bum-hunting is completely within the letter of the law.  It's kind of dissapoitning that hastings and crew got away with it even though they were always going to.

Both are always going to happen though, that is just the world.

I think you should start a campaign to get the law changed 

[SuuPRlim]

What's the difference between Feldman bum hunting and Hastings/Townsend/South taking millions from Blom?

and sharing 50,000 lines of hand history?

they are totally different. sharing HH's is not allowed (against the rules) bum-hunting is completely within the letter of the law.  It's kind of dissapoitning that hastings and crew got away with it even though they were always going to.

Both are always going to happen though, that is just the world.

I think you should start a campaign to get the law changed 

haha trust me when you're as opinionated as I am you got way more campaigns to run before this one

let the nits be nits I say they can worry about how to keep their hourly rate at £x and what edge they have vs who and we'll just play for 2 hours before the strip-club opens.

[parker]

THE number one rule in poker is not to upset the fish. theyre the value. if you do upset the fish. come find me. ill be your value.

[Woodsey]

THE number one rule in poker is not to upset the fish. theyre the value. if you do upset the fish. come find me. ill be your value.

Its more fun upsetting the regs by not giving them any action and bum hunting the fish from them. 

[SuuPRlim]

THE number one rule in poker is not to upset the fish. theyre the value. if you do upset the fish. come find me. ill be your value.

Its more fun upsetting the regs by not giving them any action and bum hunting the fish from them. 

haha Woodsey on top from as per.

I wanna try quit the word Fish from poker vocab.