Andrew Feldman

[DaveShoelace]

How does bankruptcy work in this country, if Zimbler won the next tourney he played and shipped £100k, would he have to hand some of it over to Feldman or does he get to keep the lot?

It lasts a year, Barry. For that year, the court-appointed Trustee In Bankruptcy manages your finances, including using any spare income over that time towards your debts. After 12 months from the Bankruptcy Order, the slate is wiped (obviously with credit rating affected).

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/ManagingDebt/Bankruptcy/DG_187323

Thanks

Although I probably would be trying to take Zimbler to court too in this situation, possibly just out of spite, it does seem pretty futile to threaten a poker player with bankruptcy.

[Simon Galloway]

Going back to the days of open outcry trading, a scenario I witnessed zillions of times:  A trader stands in a pit and has an order to buy a large amount over the course of the day on behalf of the client at the trader's discretion.  Simultaneously, the trader also has his 'jobbing' account - an account for which he trades for his own profit.  Laws are there to force the trader to subordinate his own account in favour of the client.  However, the trader decides to execute a trade on behalf of the client and the price immediately moves in his favour.  He now has a choice to assign that trade to the client or to say nothing and keep that profitable trade for himself... guess which decision many of them make..

fast forward to 2012.  You give me some money to trade $/DOW and I let you know how you did later.  Anyone see the similarity?  The trade goes well, that was for me.  The trade does badly, oh by the way, here is your trade. (and bill)

On top of that, if anyone wants to pay me 30% fee on a fund of that size, I will (mis)manage it for you (as long as you indemnify me from subsequent court proceedings as this case obv now gives a precedent for future cases)

I don't have the details over an above the judge's findings ~ but it seems to me very very likely that Feldman was naive/flat out stupid beyond belief and that Zimbler knew enough to take advantage of that as a massive freeroll  (but not enough to be sensible with it, or enough to trade the market well)

[Tal]

Without making an utterly banal post, it's all just so unpleasant.

In an odd way, putting a positive spin on it, given what has been posted, perhaps it is a good thing to see these matters being resolved through the same legal means available to the rest of society. The old "send the boys round" of the past belongs in nostalgic poker articles and Guy Ritchie movies, as this case has allowed others to have recourse through the courts.

In practice, if the defendant wasn't going to pay anyway, bankruptcy leads to an exclusion from major competition for a year (if he were to win, it would be publicly available information, after all). Going into business is difficult, too.

There is more to it than social exclusion. The facts and views of both sides are heard in open court, reported and a conclusion is drawn by an expert arbiter, with the possibility of a right to appeal, of course.

It's their business and if either thinks they have been wronged, they have the opportunity to handle it how they see fit. I don't believe poker has been dragged through the mud any more than if it were resolved by a visit from the boys. However childish the reason that the dispute occurred was, it has been resolved through adult means.

[edgascoigne]

Without making an utterly banal post, it's all just so unpleasant.

In an odd way, putting a positive spin on it, given what has been posted, perhaps it is a good thing to see these matters being resolved through the same legal means available to the rest of society. The old "send the boys round" of the past belongs in nostalgic poker articles and Guy Ritchie movies, as this case has allowed others to have recourse through the courts.

<3 Guy Ritchie movies

[redsimon]

Without making an utterly banal post, it's all just so unpleasant.

In an odd way, putting a positive spin on it, given what has been posted, perhaps it is a good thing to see these matters being resolved through the same legal means available to the rest of society. The old "send the boys round" of the past belongs in nostalgic poker articles and Guy Ritchie movies, as this case has allowed others to have recourse through the courts.

In practice, if the defendant wasn't going to pay anyway, bankruptcy leads to an exclusion from major competition for a year (if he were to win, it would be publicly available information, after all). Going into business is difficult, too.

There is more to it than social exclusion. The facts and views of both sides are heard in open court, reported and a conclusion is drawn by an expert arbiter, with the possibility of a right to appeal, of course.

It's their business and if either thinks they have been wronged, they have the opportunity to handle it how they see fit. I don't believe poker has been dragged through the mud any more than if it were resolved by a visit from the boys. However childish the reason that the dispute occurred was, it has been resolved through adult means.

Unless he goes Anon ?

[smashedagain]

So my guess is that Paul will be up back and running 366 days after his bankruptcy and playing poker again then. I started this journey as a Zimbler fan and mocking Feldmans immaturity but am being swayed the other way. People are entitled to their opinions obv but does it really matter or affect any of us. Paul took a load of stick yesterday on here yesterday, not just by the usual mentality but also by some pretty intelligent guys too. I would love for Paul to come on here and post a response but I don't think for one minute he will.

[tikay]

I think there is some misunderstanding here.

There is nothing to prevent an individual who has been declared bankrupt from playing real money, "Live", poker Tournaments. Plenty do, every week, including at DTD. Some casinos do ban bankrupt individuals, but it is not mandatory as far as I am aware. 

I am talking "officially" bankrupt, not just skinto poker players.

[Simon Galloway]

Isn't the point that for bankrupt players, if they are still under the jurisdiction of the Trustee, any large score could be recovered?  (Failure to submit would presumably be a criminal charge) Someone who was bankrupt years ago (a discharged bankrupt iirc) has no such concern.

[Tal]

I think there is some misunderstanding here.

There is nothing to prevent an individual who has been declared bankrupt from playing real money, "Live", poker Tournaments. Plenty do, every week, including at DTD. Some casinos do ban bankrupt individuals, but it is not mandatory as far as I am aware. 

I am talking "officially" bankrupt, not just skinto poker players.

What I meant by this is that, if they come into money during their bankruptcy, I would expect that the winnings would go towards clearing debts.

I won't speak ill of any individual if they haven't wronged me or someone very close to me. I have been brought up to speak as I find.

There's a chap in the Paralympics swimming for Spain who lost his leg while on a hunger strike, during his 17 years' imprisonment, for blowing up something on behalf of the Basque separatist group ETA. Now there's an opinion-divider!

[luther101]

So PZ has gone bankrupt, and AF won't recover any of the £50k.

Going to Law has been a total waste of time, and achieved nothing.

It would appear that the only 'winners' in this dispute - who will get paid - will be M'Learned Friends.

Wherever there's grief there's a 'Legal Leech' lurking     ......

[david3103]

So PZ has gone bankrupt, and AF won't recover any of the £50k.

Going to Law has been a total waste of time, and achieved nothing.

It would appear that the only 'winners' in this dispute - who will get paid - will be M'Learned Friends.

Wherever there's grief there's a 'Legal Leech' lurking     ....

Trollope... "Is it not remarkable that the common repute which we all give to attorneys in the general is exactly opposite to that which every man gives to his own attorney in particular? Whom does anybody trust so implicitly as he trusts his own attorney? And yet is it not the case that the body of attorneys is supposed to be the most roguish body in existence?"


As for Feldman v Zimbler - not sure if the case sets a precedent in legal terms, but the judgement is interesting and contradicts the Goldwynism that a Verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on

[Tal]

They sailed away for a year and a day,
To the land where the Bong-tree grows,
And there in the wood a Piggy-wig stood,
With a ring in the end of his nose,
      His nose,
      His nose!
With a ring in the end of his nose.
'Dear Pig, are you willing, to sell for one shilling
Your ring?' Said the Piggy, 'I will.'


Give me a better example of a verbal contract and I will be eternally grateful. The ancient Romans had a principle called Stipulatio, which covered the situation above perfectly.

Not arguing a point at all; just an aside.

[MANTIS01]

Kinda agree with camel itt.

So DTD employed a bankrupt welcher who's opinions are mocked to present their showcase stream to the poker community. Doesn't seem like a great choice. Personally I would go with Keith Chegwin because he has a recognisable voice and would be cheap.

[MANTIS01]

doubt many of the posters on here will know of aces poker

would like to hear?

Me 2

It's quite a long story, Lee, & quite an astonishing one, too. To be fair, you need to know the individuals involved for it to have full impact. Some are still around, & several "victims" are current members of blonde.

I'm sure Camel will deliver more succinct cliffs than I ever could. He used to Blog about it a fair bit, back in around 2004, 5 & 6 I seem to recall.

To this day, every time I see a certain gentleman from the Continent, he asks me if I know the whereabouts of those involved. Apparently, he wants to have a word. 

It's an astonishing story with victims strewn all around and a mysterious continental villain seeking retribution. But that's for another time

[tikay]

doubt many of the posters on here will know of aces poker

would like to hear?

Me 2

It's quite a long story, Lee, & quite an astonishing one, too. To be fair, you need to know the individuals involved for it to have full impact. Some are still around, & several "victims" are current members of blonde.

I'm sure Camel will deliver more succinct cliffs than I ever could. He used to Blog about it a fair bit, back in around 2004, 5 & 6 I seem to recall.

To this day, every time I see a certain gentleman from the Continent, he asks me if I know the whereabouts of those involved. Apparently, he wants to have a word. 

It's an astonishing story with victims strewn all around and a mysterious continental villain seeking retribution. But that's for another time