Jimmy Carr

[jakally]

Two things up front :

I've a liking for Jimmy Carr's brand of stand up comedy.
I had tickets for his gig tonight (Sat night) in Derby.

Therefore I was a little bit concerned when I saw him in the news this week.
My first thought wasn't 'How is the country going to cope without that tax revenue?', it was more like 'I hope this doesn't spoil the gig at the weekend!'.

Pretty selfish, I know, but what do you expect from a non tax paying poker player.

Anyway, been to his little show tonight, and excellent as expected, but also handled himself in great fashion with regards to the tax issue.
Topped and tailed the set with reasonably humble, honest stuff, and most of the people there are decent fans of his, so aren't going to give him anything but support.

Some tax related heckles, right from the start though, which he handled very well, and worked in some stuff which was poking fun at himself on the subject.

One point he made, was that it wasn't every day that the PM interrupts his day to day business, to call out an individual, so it was a pretty massive issue for him.
Fair play to him carrying on with his tour in the face of that (pretty massive issue for me obv), and he has gone up a little bit in my estimation as a result.

[Waz1892]

he did the same in 8/10 cats this week.

Done nothing legally wrong.

Morally maybe but ffs who wouldnt if you had the chance?  its immoral the footballers get paid more than nurses...its wrong a sales rep gets paid more than a solider...etc etc

anything said about that?

never understood the reasoning why Cameron got involved and at Carr so personally?  obv a reason but i havent heard anything?

most rich people do the tax loop hole....its wrong, abusing the system, when people are struggling big time, but it'll always happen.

[Jon MW]

...
most rich people do the tax loop hole....its wrong, abusing the system, when people are struggling big time, but it'll always happen.

I wonder how many people who are criticising him buy products from Channel Island based companies to avoid paying a little bit of tax on their DVD/CD's? It's not just rich people who look for tax loop holes.

Not that there are a lot of people criticising him - if you take out politicians and journalists I think it's just a handful of people.

[smashedagain]

Wtf is the Prime Minister singling him out for. Hope he turns his attentions to more politicians and Carr comes up with some material he can use to get back at him

[DaveShoelace]

Carr bent over and took it like a man on 8 out of 10 cats. He certainly has been scapegoated for something a vast majority of rich people do, albeit he was one of the more extreme examples.

I reckon Cameron singled him out because politicians see media as the enemy, and I think a tv comedian who pokes fun at politicians is even bigger an enemy.

I actually think Carr will end up being more liked after this, he has handled he situation so well.

[bobAlike]

Carr bent over and took it like a man on 8 out of 10 cats. He certainly has been scapegoated for something a vast majority of rich people do, albeit he was one of the more extreme examples.

I reckon Cameron singled him out because politicians see media as the enemy, and I think a tv comedian who pokes fun at politicians is even bigger an enemy.

I actually think Carr will end up being more liked after this, he has handled he situation so well.

......and he's accountants will just rearrange his affairs using another tax efficient scheme.

Good luck to him.

[Tal]

Carr, above a lot of satirists, has been vocal in his sketches and jokes about MPs, the rich and News international. When the chance for a bit of revenge came, the press weren't going to miss their chance.

Cambridge poshboy is just as bad as those he satirised etc etc

Cameron - just like the other leaders of course - loves a good bandwagon. Once it made the front page of the red tops, our PM was sure to pipe up to express the vox populari. It's this week's pasty.

[DaveShoelace]

Of course as well, he has timed an Xmas biography perfectly now too. Give it some funny tax evasiony name and it'll be this year's best stocking filler.

[Doobs]

Carr bent over and took it like a man on 8 out of 10 cats. He certainly has been scapegoated for something a vast majority of rich people do, albeit he was one of the more extreme examples.

I realise you have said extreme, but vast majority is clear nonsense.  As you say this is at the extreme end of the spectrum, as it appears he was going to be paying barely any tax on this money. 

This really is a big step from your average rich person indulging in salary sacrifice on pension contributions, working through a limited company or buying a few CDs via the Chanel Islands.  I think it is wrong to link these things to a scheme that meant he was going to be paying a tiny proportion of his income as tax.

I suppose if you are talking about the super rich, you'd be closer to the vast majority.

I'd say this scheme is clearly on the borders of tax evasion/tax avoidence.  You can see that from some of the quotes.  Jimmy Carr says he was told it was legal, and not "it was legal" etc.  The tax authorities are clearly going to try and get this tax back from Jimmy Carr and the others in this scheme, and it is unclear whether they will succeed.

Of course Cameron made a mistake in singling him out, because he has opened himself up to questions on every single individual's tax affairs by doing so.  He realises he shouldn't have commented already.  I really think he could just as easily have made the same mistake if he was asked about the Gary barlow scheme or countless others, and it is nothing to do with any personal grudge against Jimmy Carr or the media.

I have to work through a limited company and make a tax free profit from poker, but don't think I am been immensely hypocritical here.  I am pretty sure I'd never indulge in anything like this.

[Jon MW]

...
I have to work through a limited company and make a tax free profit from poker, but don't think I am been immensely hypocritical here.  I am pretty sure I'd never indulge in anything like this.

 

Paying less tax is paying less tax.

If you pay 1% instead of 60% or if you pay 0% instead of 20% you're still doing exactly the same thing - legally finding a way to avoid paying as much tax as was originally envisioned.

Using my example before, anybody who has ever bought a DVD from Amazon Jersey instead of Amazon UK has avoided paying the tax that it was intended to be paid - conceptually and morally the 'amount' makes no difference, the trying to avoid paying what you 'should' be paying is exactly the same.

[ManuelsMum]

It's a lot harder to defend when you're making demands on people and governments to hand over their own cash to your causes

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/ontherecord/2011/06/07/taxing-questions-for-bono-and-u2/

[ScottMGee]

Using my example before, anybody who has ever bought a DVD from Amazon Jersey instead of Amazon UK has avoided paying the tax that it was intended to be paid - conceptually and morally the 'amount' makes no difference, the trying to avoid paying what you 'should' be paying is exactly the same.

Totally different.

Jimmy Carr's used an aggressive strategy exploiting loop holes unknown to the HMRC to minimise his tax bill.

I doubt 10% of the public would be aware that buying a CD from amazon has any tax saving, this approach is well known by the HMRC and they have made no attempt to shut this down.

[Jon MW]

Using my example before, anybody who has ever bought a DVD from Amazon Jersey instead of Amazon UK has avoided paying the tax that it was intended to be paid - conceptually and morally the 'amount' makes no difference, the trying to avoid paying what you 'should' be paying is exactly the same.

Totally different.

Jimmy Carr's used an aggressive strategy exploiting loop holes unknown to the HMRC to minimise his tax bill.

I doubt 10% of the public would be aware that buying a CD from amazon has any tax saving, this approach is well known by the HMRC and they have made no attempt to shut this down.

No the difference is if they tried to shut it down they wouldn't raise very much money because people would find other VAT free places to order from - or does something only become immoral when it involves more money?

And the point of a tax loop hole is that it's either unknown to the HMRC or they haven't closed it yet - the whole of that first sentence is true of, or similar to, any tax avoidance scheme.

[Doobs]

...
I have to work through a limited company and make a tax free profit from poker, but don't think I am been immensely hypocritical here.  I am pretty sure I'd never indulge in anything like this.

 

Paying less tax is paying less tax.

I have to work through a limited company.

Maybe your comprehension skills are bad?  I used to be a sole trader, but now I am forced by my clients to go down the limited company route.  This is not the same as aggressively trying to pay 1% tax on my income as Jimmy Carr did.  It is about 2 or 3% of the tax rate I paid on my income last year.

You are picking on the wrong target, I really could have paid a lot less tax over the years if I chose to.

and FWIW I think the government are actively trying to close the CD tax loophole too.

[ScottMGee]

And the point of a tax loop hole is that it's either unknown to the HMRC or they haven't closed it yet - the whole of that first sentence is true of, or similar to, any tax avoidance scheme.

If the HMRC know about the tax avoidance strategy and do not close it down by changing the rules then it cannot be a loop hole it must be legitimate tax planning as the a) the rules allow you to do it and b) the HMRC have made attempt to change the rules hence it must be acceptable.

The Jimmy Carr case seems to be a little different, otherwise by your definition virtually everything you do would be a loop hole.