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Author Topic: How can you define what level you think at?  (Read 2429 times)
Rickie Belfield
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« on: June 24, 2012, 03:23:23 AM »

I've heard a lot of people talk about it and somebody recently posted a thread which referred to it. Could anybody give me some sort of in depth insight please?
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rfgqqabc
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2012, 03:37:39 AM »

Its a load of bollocks.

Basically it goes.

1) My cards
2) my cards + my opponents cards
3) my cards + opps range + opps general thoughts on me
4) My cards, opps range, opps thought on my range

Its just something people say to give a clearer idea of where others play. However, this isn't the case, some weaker players have holes in their thought process, others just like calling. it is impossible to assign yourself a level.
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jgcblack
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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2012, 03:53:36 AM »

As someone who has claimed to be on ridiculous levels in the past... the MASSIVE MAJORITY of all players non pro/ non full time are ALL level 1.. with the occasional thought toward level 2.


its only when u get to hu vs a competent opponent that will genuinely think on level 2+...


god knows where ivey sits...
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ScottMGee
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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2012, 10:44:11 AM »

I thought it went: -

1) My cards
2) my cards + my opponents cards
3) my cards + opps range + opps thoughts on my cards
4) my cards + opps range + opps thoughts on my cards + what my opps thinks I think their range is
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Poker_Monkey
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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2012, 11:31:46 AM »

My way of looking at it

1. My Cards
2. My Cards + ops Cards
3. What op thinks I have

And if cant get any of that lean over take a sip of my pint and stick it all in and hope Lol
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bobby1
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« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2012, 11:39:10 AM »

You have all forgotten number 5, which is WWPD





What would Pleno do.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 11:56:47 AM by bobby1 » Logged

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smashedagain
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« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2012, 11:51:04 AM »

As someone who has claimed to be on ridiculous levels in the past... the MASSIVE MAJORITY of all players non pro/ non full time are ALL level 1.. with the occasional thought toward level 2.


its only when u get to hu vs a competent opponent that will genuinely think on level 2+...


god knows where ivey sits...
You can see what level Ivey is on with the hand against Paul Jackson. Pretty incredible stuff when you accept the fact it's not just cock waving.

The thing that tilts me is when guys do a tr and it starts out :
Start of comp  "my table is ridiculously soft full of level 1 thinkers and I am bossing them from the off"

First break "chipping up nicely value betting my hands perfectly and getting paid"

Level 4 " sorry guys gone. Lost a flip, thought I could get the fish to fold pre.  I run so bad but pleased with how I play"
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jgcblack
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« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2012, 04:07:58 PM »

Is that a direct quote from one of my tr's??

Wording seems familiar............
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smashedagain
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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2012, 04:25:48 PM »

Is that a direct quote from one of my tr's??

Wording seems familiar............
Lol no not specifically you, I loved the insane edge stuff. More and more people are using "ridic soft field/bust" route. You never hear em do a win and say how soft the field was.
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ManuelsMum
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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2012, 04:42:34 PM »

I thought it went: -

1) My cards
2) my cards + my opponents cards
3) my cards + opps range + opps thoughts on my cards
4) my cards + opps range + opps thoughts on my cards + what my opps thinks I think their range is


1) My cards
1.5) My cards+whether my opponent is prone to bluffing/getting out of line
2) my cards + my opponents cards
3) my cards + opps range + opps thoughts on my cards
4) my cards + opps range + opps thoughts on my cards + what my opps thinks I think their range is

Would say about 95 percent of players are in 1.5 plus. They may not be identifying your range but it's just really natural for people to try to define what kind of person you are from fairly scant information, and really natural to rebel against attempts to be pushed around too.
Sit down heads up on any level and raise 30% more pre than the norm, and show me a player who hasn't adjusted somewhat to you within 15 hands. They may not have formally identified your range but they have a broad idea of where they thing you're at, and probably a bit of what you think of them too.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 05:38:10 PM by ManuelsMum » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2012, 05:03:02 PM »

I always thought it was:

I know
I know that you know
I know that you know that I know
I know that you know that I know that you know
I know that you know that I know that you know that I know
etc
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« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2012, 05:28:40 PM »

You can see what level Ivey is on with the hand against Paul Jackson. Pretty incredible stuff when you accept the fact it's not just cock waving.

without wanting to take anything away from Ivey, that's barely a "level 3" hand imo, they are both playing "lets rep absolutely nothing" but obviously HU for a milly it's pretty boss, I think it's way cooler if Ivey has KQ and call/calls after the flop however many bets it is.

these levels business is very misleading, because everyone, no matter how good at cards you are is capable of some really good plays, I'm going to say by accident for simplicity but it isn't an accident, it's a level of un-concious knowledge that a player has learnt without really knowing that they've learnt it. You will often see a percieved weaker recreational player on a table, offering post-hand analysis and explaining a concept that is actually quite advanced, allbeit simply, what this is is that there enthusiasm for the game and enjoyment of it has forced their brain to soak some information up and then to apply it - this is the first step of improving basically.

As you start to improve, or "level up" as it were there are basic "levels" which Jared Trendler talks about in his book, these "levels" are

Unconscious Incompetence - You don't know what you don't know, complete beginner.
Conscious Incompetence - You've become conscious of what you don't know, you begin to understand where and how you need to improve.
Conscious Competence - After countless hours of study you become skilled/have had enough experience to gain skill. You need to think about what you've learned...otherwise you return to being incompetent.
Unconscious Competence - At this level you've learned something so well that it is now totally automatic and requires no thinking. In poker this could be anything from folding 23o utg to understanding why someone is exploitable when they open x amount of hands and cbet y board with z frequency. In the book he refers to this as "The Holy Grail of Learning".

Everyone is capable of anything at a poker table, so you need to respect your opponents all the time - giving people a little too much credit, speshly live, will always be better than under-estimating them.
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« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2012, 05:34:30 PM »

That's a twist on how the four stages thing was expressed back in my early sales training days.

Unconscious Competence was the third level where you begin to succeed without truly understanding why.
Conscious Competence is the nirvana stage where you have total understanding of where you are and what needs to be done to achieve your aim.
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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2012, 06:12:20 PM »

I think that makes more sense tbh, david's post.

Still both admirably make the point that specific levels don't really exist - golf for example, Tiger isn't even in the top 100 in the world at driving yet is still the best player by a country mile, so if you had no clue and watched him drive you'd assume if you were of a decent proffessional stnd he was maybe a bit budget.
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« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2012, 06:18:59 PM »

Talking of next level thinkers I saw quad jacks chat with Sam Grafton. When can we expect to see you doing this stuff
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