what the ruling?

[parker]

Strange ruling here at Dtd? about an hour ago...

Middle position limps, sb doesn't see it and raises. Bb folds and sb turns over a8 clubs. Mp calls.

Flop comes 2 clubs and sb with his hand exposed bets out?!?!

Floor rules he can make aggressive action?!?

[dik9]

Correct, penalty after the hand.

[CHIPPYMAN]

Correct, penalty after the hand.

Told them & they don't believe me . Mehhhhhhhhh

[Cf]

I asked in another thread and got no response so I will ask again.

Will someone please show me a reputable ruleset which does not allow you to make aggressive action in this instance.

[parker]

Just the rule I've always known from Hitchin

[JK]

Sorry CF, I forgot to reply to that. Was in the process of trying to find something but was on my phone so didnt try for too long.

Its the rule I have always known/been told/gone by

[outragous76]

CF

This type of hand/spot is actually an exceptional example of where this can be used as an angle and why no aggresive action should be allowed!

Lets say the guy flips his hand over post flop. This is a spot where irrespective of what the other guy has, the villain has a tonne of equity even if he is currently behind and the other guy knows he isnt folding the flop.

So, as the villain, we know we are never folding, we know the other guy can "act perfectly given perfect information" so we Jam! we are never in a bad spot. So how is this not an angle which the villain can expolit?

[doubleup]

CF

This type of hand/spot is actually an exceptional example of where this can be used as an angle and why no aggresive action should be allowed!

Lets say the guy flips his hand over post flop. This is a spot where irrespective of what the other guy has, the villain has a tonne of equity even if he is currently behind and the other guy knows he isnt folding the flop.

So, as the villain, we know we are never folding, we know the other guy can "act perfectly given perfect information" so we Jam! we are never in a bad spot. So how is this not an angle which the villain can expolit?

He can go allin and simultaneously flip his hand having the same result.  The penalty should be severe enough to to make it pointless to try this move.

[Cf]

CF

This type of hand/spot is actually an exceptional example of where this can be used as an angle and why no aggresive action should be allowed!

Lets say the guy flips his hand over post flop. This is a spot where irrespective of what the other guy has, the villain has a tonne of equity even if he is currently behind and the other guy knows he isnt folding the flop.

So, as the villain, we know we are never folding, we know the other guy can "act perfectly given perfect information" so we Jam! we are never in a bad spot. So how is this not an angle which the villain can expolit?

What.

How are we never in a bad spot? This gives the other player a massive advantage:
- He can happily call off with his strong hands
- He can happily fold worse
- He can't end up in a situation where he decides to bluff against a player who is never folding

You say the villain has a tonne of equity post-flop. Yes, he has. But he'd have had more if the other player couldn't see the hand.

Let's take a more obviously clear cut example. You have KK and villian shows AA and is first to act. Villain is going to jam. Flops are rainbow:

1) T92

Nice easy fold for the KK. We've just saved loads of chips.

2) AK5

Another nice easy fold. We'd 100% never have folded here had we not seen his hand.

3) KT2

gg AA.


And the other assumption here is that villain is going to flop the world. This won't always be the case. Let's say the flop comes down TJQhhh. Yeah, villain is screwed.

[doubleup]

CF - you are not taking into account bubble type situations where being marginally ahead isn't quite enough. 

[outragous76]

CF - you are not taking into account bubble type situations where being marginally ahead isn't quite enough. 

more to the point, his examples are irrelevant.

this example is a perfectly good reason why the guy who makes the mistake (or shoots an angle) should have absolutely no way of taking ANY edge for ANY reason

[smashedagain]

Use better grammar

[Cf]

CF - you are not taking into account bubble type situations where being marginally ahead isn't quite enough. 

Ok... We are on the bubble. Hand is the one in op.

1) villain exposes his cards then jams flop.

2) villain does not expose his cards then jams flop.

I'm not seeing any massive edge for the villain in first example. If it's the bubble then the jam folds out a lot of marginals anyway. And that's assuming we are in a bubble type situation. And we are assuming villain is gonna flop the world. If villain pulls this stroke on the bubble but misses the flop then he's just screwed himself.

I'm not going mad here am I? I'm being told being able to see your opponents cards puts you at a disadvantage?

[outragous76]

Charles

You are being very closed minded here. If we really have to point out the obvious


Flop comes 

Blokes "accidentally" flips over   

other guy has 

the guy who hasnt made the mistake is getting free rolled to lose. Now obv the chips might go in here on the flop anyway - but that isnt the point. The guy without the fd has no option of how the hand plays out - whereas with the cards on their backs the guy with the FD has no reason not to move all in on the flop

Please tell me how  now has the advantage?

[Cf]

Cards exposed:

1) Villain jams - Work out the pot odds and decide whether to call or not. If odds are good then call. If the odds are bad then fold. Villain has lost equity either way.

2) Villain bets - As above.

3) Villain checks - Check behind. Obviously good for us. If the flush hits then we can fold. This is how you'd rule it as villain is not able to bet.

Cards not exposed:

1) Villain jams - We call, and are being freerolled.

2) Villain bets - We call/jam, unaware we are being freerolled.

3) Villain checks - We check/bet, likely bet. Villain can then raise and we call getting freerolled.


I'm just not seeing it. With the cards not exposed we can get into all types of trouble in this spot. With the cards exposed then we can make the right decision. Yes, villain just jamming takes away options of how the hand might play out. But the villain jamming in this spot stops him getting maximum value from his hand. This should be a freeroll for him, and you've just flopped the nuts. But there's a chance you might fold!? Not exactly sure how this gives the villain an edge here.

As for  ... guy is either splitting or losing the pot. Being shown this and now being able to prevent the loss seems like a bit of an advantage to me.

I can sort of see where you're coming from with the bubble angle, but your example is nothing to do with that.