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bobAlike
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« Reply #90 on: August 23, 2012, 07:18:37 PM »

As I've said previously 3 strikes may not be the ideal situation but IMO nobody has said what is the better solution.
...

The current system is a better solution

The 3 strikes system doesn't work as a deterrence and it doesn't work as rehabilitation, the only thing it works at is punishment.

And as it is providing the same sort of punishment for lesser crimes the result is you have the escalation as has already been mentioned - i.e. it makes crime in the country worse.

How can a system which doesn't decrease the overall level of crime but will increase the severity of crime be a better way of doing things?


Sorry still not convinced. Nobody has stated an alternative method of deterrant which will make me change my mind.
You say the current system is better yet why do the majority of offenders re-offend?
Why does the severity of crime increase? Desparation maybe still not entirely convinced. I can see why you say it but not totally comvinced.
 
To be honest with you I'm still angry about my burglary and this is why I want to see these fuckers locked up.

The whole of the justice system in this country is not fit for purpose. Where suspected crims get arressted and subsequently let go because they keep saying no comment or even nothing at all. Just one example. How is that right?

I still think they should all be locked up.
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Acidmouse
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« Reply #91 on: August 23, 2012, 07:30:26 PM »

A couple of things, you don't get rehabilited in prison, it just teaches you new tricks. Often its a cushy number for hardened criminals, so why put them away if A) it wont stop them in the future commiting further crimes? B) it costing us nearly 40k a year to have them locked up? Like most things unless you seek out the root of a problem and the reasons why someone is commiting crimes they wont stop. I know that sounds boring and unrealistic given it actually costs money to do this in the short term, long term the society as a whole will benifit finacially and in less crimes.
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Tal
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« Reply #92 on: August 23, 2012, 07:54:48 PM »

Who fancies being the Home Secretary then, announcing:

1. We're issuing guidance to sentencing judges to increase sentences to repeat offenders, so we will have to put 2p on income tax to build two new prisons; or

2.  We're making everyone serve their full term in prison, rather than releasing them at half time, so we'll need to build a new prison or two, so 2p again please; or

3. We're clamping down on drugs in prison, increasing medical treatment to get offenders off drugs, but we'll need staff increases to tackle the aggravated prisoners, and to police the flow of drugs into and around the wings...2p each please... or

4. We're sending convicted criminals with drug depencies to treatment centres rather than prison to get them off the reason they're committing crime, so prison numbers will drop by 50% in the next ten years, but this means we won't look like we're being tough on crime, even though in 5 years' time, we might actually be able to give you a tax benefit?

Orderly queue please
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Geo the Sarge
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« Reply #93 on: August 23, 2012, 08:08:58 PM »

Who fancies being the Home Secretary then, announcing:

1. We're issuing guidance to sentencing judges to increase sentences to repeat offenders, so we will have to put 2p on income tax to build two new prisons; or

2.  We're making everyone serve their full term in prison, rather than releasing them at half time, so we'll need to build a new prison or two, so 2p again please; or

3. We're clamping down on drugs in prison, increasing medical treatment to get offenders off drugs, but we'll need staff increases to tackle the aggravated prisoners, and to police the flow of drugs into and around the wings...2p each please... or

4. We're sending convicted criminals with drug depencies to treatment centres rather than prison to get them off the reason they're committing crime, so prison numbers will drop by 50% in the next ten years, but this means we won't look like we're being tough on crime, even though in 5 years' time, we might actually be able to give you a tax benefit?

Orderly queue please

Who fancies being the policeman who has to visit the parents to explain that their child has been murdered/sexually assaulted by a repeat offender currently on probation having served only half of a previous conviction

I'll pay the extra 2p if it lessens the chances I become victim to someone who should still be locked up and losing something more valuable, be it money, possessions or family members

The rehabilitation centre thing has been tried often and failed.

FWIW, am not a fan of 3 strikes, however multiple sexual/murder offenders should get life being life sentences on second offence imo. Sexual/murder offenders against children should get life imo


Geo
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Tal
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« Reply #94 on: August 23, 2012, 08:26:59 PM »

You all probably know this but you do serve the entire sentence; just not all of it necessarily in prison.

If you are out after 5 of your 10 years, you do so on licence and are subject to recall. If you don't pay the TV licence, you're aggressive to the bin men or you're a bit rude to your probation officer, you can go back.

The treatment thing hasn't been tried in as extreme a form as I've suggested.

Michael Howard said 20 years ago, "prison works". It can, but not in its current form.

What do you think of the model they use in Sweden, where you get your sentence but don't go straight away (except in the worst cases). You basically get triaged like a hospital and called to serve your sentence when the State wants you to.
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« Reply #95 on: August 23, 2012, 08:34:19 PM »

Cost does come into it but it shouldn't

It should. Cost has to come into everything. There is a limited amount of money so everything is rationed. There is nothing so important that cost should not come into it.
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Geo the Sarge
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« Reply #96 on: August 23, 2012, 08:41:48 PM »

You all probably know this but you do serve the entire sentence; just not all of it necessarily in prison.

If you are out after 5 of your 10 years, you do so on licence and are subject to recall. If you don't pay the TV licence, you're aggressive to the bin men or you're a bit rude to your probation officer, you can go back.

The treatment thing hasn't been tried in as extreme a form as I've suggested.

Michael Howard said 20 years ago, "prison works". It can, but not in its current form.

What do you think of the model they use in Sweden, where you get your sentence but don't go straight away (except in the worst cases). You basically get triaged like a hospital and called to serve your sentence when the State wants you to.

You're examples for recall are just lol. I've seen many cases of people offending whilst on license and still not being sent back to complete their sentence.

Geo
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Geo the Sarge
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« Reply #97 on: August 23, 2012, 08:45:20 PM »

You all probably know this but you do serve the entire sentence; just not all of it necessarily in prison.

If you are out after 5 of your 10 years, you do so on licence and are subject to recall. If you don't pay the TV licence, you're aggressive to the bin men or you're a bit rude to your probation officer, you can go back.

The treatment thing hasn't been tried in as extreme a form as I've suggested.

Michael Howard said 20 years ago, "prison works". It can, but not in its current form.

What do you think of the model they use in Sweden, where you get your sentence but don't go straight away (except in the worst cases). You basically get triaged like a hospital and called to serve your sentence when the State wants you to.

Is this not just for young offenders to age 18?

Geo
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nirvana
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« Reply #98 on: August 23, 2012, 09:07:36 PM »

I feel quite reactionary where convictions and prison are concerned.

People have cared about rehab for a long (ish) time and I guess most of us would think it doesn't really work, the deterrent factor doesn't appear to be too effective either.

If one simplifies and decides that the main goal for imprisonment is prevention then we don't have to worry too much about rights, privileges, rehab efforts etc. We accept that most will offend again so why be nice .. it doesn't really work.

In this scenario, prison get's quite cheap and so we can keep building more, and keep locking violent people up until there aren't any violent people left at liberty.

Be pretty happy to see a 3 strikes outlook introduced to sentencing for violent crime.
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Tal
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« Reply #99 on: August 23, 2012, 09:29:02 PM »

You all probably know this but you do serve the entire sentence; just not all of it necessarily in prison.

If you are out after 5 of your 10 years, you do so on licence and are subject to recall. If you don't pay the TV licence, you're aggressive to the bin men or you're a bit rude to your probation officer, you can go back.

The treatment thing hasn't been tried in as extreme a form as I've suggested.

Michael Howard said 20 years ago, "prison works". It can, but not in its current form.

What do you think of the model they use in Sweden, where you get your sentence but don't go straight away (except in the worst cases). You basically get triaged like a hospital and called to serve your sentence when the State wants you to.

You're examples for recall are just lol. I've seen many cases of people offending whilst on license and still not being sent back to complete their sentence.

Geo


TBF I said can be recalled.

As it happens, I've seen in both work and studies such cases as I've suggested. There are always odd reasons for unusual cases. On the whole, you are right that a lot aren't recalled.
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George2Loose
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« Reply #100 on: August 24, 2012, 01:12:57 PM »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19365616

Maybe puts our justice system into context? 21 years for killing 77 people
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redsimon
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« Reply #101 on: August 24, 2012, 01:15:41 PM »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19365616

Maybe puts our justice system into context? 21 years for killing 77 people

Plus its only a mimimum of 10 years inside too.
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Jon MW
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« Reply #102 on: August 24, 2012, 01:21:26 PM »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19365616

Maybe puts our justice system into context? 21 years for killing 77 people

Plus its only a mimimum of 10 years inside too.

But they can keep him in after the sentence is served if they think he's still a danger.

So the theoretical minimum is 10 years - but the theoretical maximum is still forever.

Having said that I've seen a lot of people have the view that their system is unusually lenient in general.
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« Reply #103 on: August 24, 2012, 01:32:46 PM »

Norway has I believe the lowest Re-conviction rate in Europe...almost 3 times less than England..Lenient or simply focused on rehabilitation?

That is not to say I wouldn't have wanted to person who robbed me a few years ago locked up for good Smiley
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