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Author Topic: Countering this?  (Read 8533 times)
pleno1
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« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2012, 11:36:13 PM »

Yeh.

Seriously, I'm pretty sure Callum (justinsayne) an I have 3et more flops than probably anybody in poker (seriously Cheesy) and there's times which hae probably been terrible, but generally now we'd agree that in almost 100pc of spots on this texture it's a 'snap 3bet and really not close at all' or of we were sweating we'd do it and other would either say yeh or not even reply as we'd just take it as standard.

Poker kinda develops with who you disuss poker with. Callum and I almost always take the aggressive/initiative taking line or we make a hero fold, ofc we call down etc too but there will be groups of friends who have really good callin ranges an generally never ever 3bet flops and I'm sure their strategy is v successful too which why a lot of the time in mid stakes hands it's really hard to give feedback because...... It depends!
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2012, 11:40:28 PM »

Patrick (and JustinSayne)... three really important questions:

1. Are you ever expecting to fold out a better hand when you 3bet?

2. Are you ever expecting to get called by a worse hand when you 3bet? (I am not counting FDs as a 'worse hand' BTW)

3. What are you planning to do if he continues vs your 3bet? Either by flatting or 4betting.

If you give me the answers to these questions then I might be able to see the way you are thinking, without them I have no idea. For example, if you say "If he 4bets we are getting the money in, we have induced right?" then I understand the 3bet (I may not necessarily agree with it - it would depend on villain reads etc - but at least I would understand it).
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2012, 11:54:13 PM »

thoughts on folding?
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pleno1
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« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2012, 11:59:32 PM »

It doesn't matter if we know he's goog to fold 100pc of the time then we'd take it. You're worrying too much about future extraction or playing vs different parts of his range which is necessary for 95pc of problems. Needs to be a reason why we are betting etc, but we want to protect our equity, win a nice amount of bbs in the pot and then also develop and understand how game flow changes an adjust quicker than the opponents.

Like I say stu, completely understand your thought process/line and in lots of ways don't disagree with it but just from playing these spots a tonne of times I won the pot a massive amount of times and of somebody could say to you when you are raised on this spot oop/deep with a bad bluffcatcher and huge vulnerability would you take winning this pot a MASSIVE amount of he time would you take it? I think so right?
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2012, 11:59:39 PM »

thoughts on folding?

Don't like it much.
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JustinSayne
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« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2012, 12:05:29 AM »

imo 3bet flop> fold > call
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pleno1
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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2012, 12:09:22 AM »

imo 3bet flop> fold > call

Yeh I agree. Although this is just in a vacuum depending on villain the latter tow options will generally change.
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2012, 12:11:20 AM »

just from playing these spots a tonne of times I won the pot a massive amount of times

Yes, I am certain this is correct. And all those times you won it felt good, and clean and easy. But this is just an illusion! Pretty much every time you 3bet here and opponent folds you would have had a better EV by simply calling. When he folds he is almost always bluffing, and you are usually going to win the hand anyway! That's where the illusion comes from. The only subset of hands that 3betting wins the pot immediately against is precisely that subset of hands in which the most profitable play is NOT to win the pot immediately. But it feels GOOD to win pots immediately, and there is a lot of positive reinforcement that comes through that. Which is why it is so easy to be fooled by the illusion and not see what is really going on with the range vs range dynamic here. And this positive reinforcement leads to thoughts like "I have 3bet this spot thousands of times and have won the pot most of the time, therefore it is the best play".
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pleno1
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« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2012, 12:15:55 AM »

somebody could say to you when you are raised on this spot oop/deep with a bad bluffcatcher and huge vulnerability would you take winning this pot a MASSIVE amount of he time would you take it? I think so right?

Im pretty sure this is most important par and the fact that you never lose a big pot and win a medium sized pot a massive amount of time vs  sometimes losing a big pot, but usually folding turn or river and sometimes winning at showdown. Or winning when it gets checked down on a blank.
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JustinSayne
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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2012, 12:16:00 AM »

Quote
you are usually going to win the hand anyway

This is very optimistic. I would feel better holding AQ then TT if I was going to call the flop. Atleast that way I still beat his draws and when he checks back the turn/river with his Qx/Ax of spades I will win.
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Whollyflush
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« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2012, 01:23:15 AM »


Good debate here but i agree with honeybadger.

I'd imagine if you played alot of hands with the same players, you would get heavily exploited with this 3b flop really wide approach compared to someone who adopts a non 3betting the flop approach (assuming both players have the same VPIP). Whenever your decreasing the PSR with frontdoor aggression it actually hinders your ability to run bluffs as FE is decreased and ranges are narrowed.

In this spot you can fold vs some players OTF,call or raise but i'd imagine the play which is going to lose the least is going to be calling. Poker isn't easy but the majority of the money made from the game isn't from making sick plays/bluffs etc but from making the fewest mistakes.
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skolsuper
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« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2012, 01:31:22 AM »

Quote
you are usually going to win the hand anyway

This is very optimistic. I would feel better holding AQ then TT if I was going to call the flop. Atleast that way I still beat his draws and when he checks back the turn/river with his Qx/Ax of spades I will win.

It isn't particularly optimistic if the villain is polarised. If you think 3b > fold AND villain is polarised, then it is almost a logical impossibility that call isn't better than 3b.
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2012, 01:35:26 AM »

How do you expect him to react to a flop 3bet with diferent parts of his range? Once you answer that you will realise why 3betting the flop is the absa nizzles Cheesy

His range:

1. Trips Kings or better.
2. Flush draws (often with overcards to TT).
3. Pure bluffs and other low equity hands (hands with between 2 and 6 outs).

Versus a 3bet:

1. Trips Kings or better is never folding and will either 4bet or flat as a 'trap'. We have succeeded in putting more money into the pot against a better hand. And if he 4bets we don't even get a chance to spike our two outer on the turn!

2. Most flush draws will continue in some way, either by floating or 4bet semi-bluffing. We have no way to prevent opponent realising his equity since we must fold if 4bet, and must check the turn if villain flats. Villain can choose to take a free card if he wants, or he can bet the turn and we will most likely have to fold (given that villain can flat our 3bet with trip Kings or better). We are going to be a substantial dog to win the pot vs a flush draw, since he will either a) 4bet flop, b) flat flop and hit a flush (or his overs) on the turn or river, or c) bluff us on the turn/river. Winning the pot vs a FD requires a parlay - that none of these three things (a, b or c) must happen. And the mathematics of parlays is such that this is fairly unlikely. So we have put additional money in the pot with a hand that is fairly unlikely to get to showdown and win, partly because of it's slight equity disadvantage vs something like AsJs and partly because it is going to get bluffed out of the pot a decent amount.

3. His bluffs will almost always fold and we will win the pot. Every now and then villain will get his spew on, grow a pair, and make a suicidal zero-equity bluff... and we will lose the pot since we can't call! But mostly we will just win right away. As I will explain below, this is not as good a thing as it 'feels'.

Versus a flat:

1. Trip Kings or better is still going to win the pot almost all the time, although we HAVE slightly improved our chances of hitting a two outer. What is the difference? None really, oh... except that we have put less money into a pot that we are not going to win!. This HAS to be a good thing, surely? Think about this: we can even call turn, fold river, which seems dodgy at first glance - until you realise that this has cost exactly the same as 3betting the flop and then folding to a 4bet. By flatting we force villain to fire two further barrels at us with a well-constructed range (going to be difficult/impossible to do on this flop unless his preflop range is insanely tight, and in this case we'd just fold the flop!) and we get to see at least one more street than we do if we 3bet the flop and get 4bet.

2. FDs are not going to get a chance to 4bet the flop. Villain is going to have to make a tough decision about whether to bet the turn when we check to him, knowing that we have a TON of Kx hands in our range so he might be check-raised when his equity is now very poor. Yes, against our PRECISE hand it is good for villain if he bets the turn since we are never c/r him and so he gets to see the river, and we might fold. But we are playing a RANGE, not a hand. Villain might well bet the turn, but that is fine since our range is very Kx heavy and he is just lucky to run into this part of our range. But villain is going to be under incredible pressure to check back the turn here, which means that we get to showdown pretty often. Yes, villain gets to realise his equity, but SO DO WE... and remember, villain actually has a BETTER HAND than us if he has a flush draw in position, so getting to showdown without having to put a lot of money in is a GOOD THING.

3. With his bluffs/low equity hands, villain will assumedly continue bluffing some % of the time. Obviously we hope his frequencies are as high as possible here. We make money versus his bluffs. We would not have made this money if he folded the flop. Yes, villain will outdraw us somewhere between 5% and 25% of the time, depending on his exact hand. This is a shame. However, it is likely to be adequately compensated for by the profit we make the times when we pick up money from his turn/river bluffs and he fails to ourdraw us. And of course, remember that we were NOT guaranteed to even see the river if we 3bet our hand since villain has the option of 4bet bluffing us. This also counter-balances the fact that villain will outdraw us with his bluffs some of the time.

Ok, so that's the likely ways in which villain will respond with different parts of his range vs a) a 3bet and b) a flat.

It's pretty clear that 3betting is a disaster vs his trips Kings or better hands, and thus flatting is definitely better than 3betting. If you don't agree with this you are INSANE lol!

It's also pretty clear that 3betting does not gain anything vs villain's flush draws. Yes, he may perhaps fold some of the tiny flush draws, and we gain there. But he is normally AT LEAST going to flat our 3bet with his FDs (assuming we don't do something stupid like 3bet really big). And when he does this we are in a REALLY REALLY tough spot, and have just succeeded in increasing the size of a pot in which we are not a favourite to win! (see the explanation on parlays above) Flatting is clearly better than 3betting vs most of his FDs, given how the hand is likely to play out. It's not like we can even raise for value and protection vs AsJs... because that hand is better than ours on this flop.

So it all comes down to his bluffs. You 3bet you 'always' win the pot (except for every now and then when he goes crazy). Feels great, right? Wrong! It shouldn't feel great. You don't want villain to be folding his bluffs... you want him to continue to barrel with them! You do let villain outdraw you some of the time, but you more than make up for this through picking off his bluffs.

The hand is NOT easier to play if you 3bet. It really is an illusion. As I have pointed out, it is going to be pretty hard to play when villain floats your 3bet! Yes, you do gain information by 3betting... but this is the sort of information you don't want! You have to fold to any further action after 3betting, so what have you gained information-wise? You could have got to the river by flatting and it wouldn't have cost you any more than 3bet/folding. And then you'd be forcing villain to triple barrel you to MAYBE make you fold!

The only part of villain's range against which 3betting perhaps makes the hand 'easier to play' is the bluff component of his range. This is because it ends the hand right away, so we don't have any further decisions to make and it all feels nice and cosy and warm. The problem is that this is precisely the part of his range against which it is more profitable NOT to end the hand right away! Yes, we are going to have to make some guesses and get in spots which 'feel' uncomfortable. But they are not really uncomfortable, this again is just an illusion. As long as we remember we are playing our range vs his range, and our HAND vs his range - suddenly it is not an uncomfortable spot any longer... it is just a hand played in the most profitable manner.

To sum up, it is pretty clear that against trip Kings+ or a FD 3betting is going to work out TERRIBLY... and I assume you are both going to agree with me. I have also demonstrated why it is most profitable not to 3bet versus the bluffs, even though 3betting is obviously profitable versus bluffs and might make things a little 'easier'.


Additional: Here is a different way of explaining it. Two bets have so far gone in on the flop, and we are considering a third bet going in at some point in the hand. We are considering the two options for how this third bet should go in: either we 3bet the flop, or we flat the flop then c/c the turn. We need to ensure that this bet is made in as profitable a spot as possible. A third bet is going to be made and matched either way if villain has trips or a FD, and both of these are not good for us (trips is a disaster, a FD is still not very good as explained above). But it doesn't really matter since that bet is going to be made (and matched) whatever line we take. So let's focus on the other part of his range - the air. We want a third bet to be MATCHED (not just made) vs his air. If we make that third bet it is NOT going to be matched since our opponent will fold. However, if we give the opponent an opportunity to make that third bet, and then WE match the bet, we have achieved our aim of getting that third bet into the pot. Basically... by calling the raise we KEEP OUR OPPONENT'S RANGE WIDE, and by 3betting we narrow his range to only hands that either have us crushed or are drawing very well against us (i.e. the FDs which often have a small equity advantage and always have a LARGE 'playing advantage' down the streets).


Edited to say: Obviously all this is based on the fact that VILLAIN IS VERY LIKELY TO BE BLUFFING ON THIS FLOP. It's pretty clear that this is the case, since it is such a hard flop to have a value hand on and so it is likely that any opponent who raises this flop has far too many bluffs in his range. That's why, without any read/dynamics, most good players would not raise this flop. They would flat with their entire continuing range unless they had a specific reason to adjust. Obviously, if we have a read that villain is very unlikely to be bluffing and his range is almost exclusively FDs and Kx or better... well all this discussion about 3betting or calling is irrelevant. We should just fold.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 01:59:23 AM by Honeybadger » Logged
cambridgealex
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« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2012, 02:05:38 AM »

Wins
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2012, 02:19:23 AM »

Oh and also... in case you are thinking, "Yeah, but what happens when we flat, then the turn comes a Q, J or Ace and villain bets again? We are in a horrible spot now aren't we? That's why we should just 3bet the flop to make him fold all his air!" This is wrong, wrong, wrong!!

If I flat the flop and then face a turn bet I'd MUCH rather the turn was an Ace, Queen or Jack than any other card (apart from a T or a K)! Yes, these turn cards hit his range for bluffing the flop. But they do not actually hit his range for for betting the turn! Imagine you had QJ, had bluffed the flop and now hit a Q... are you REALLY betting when checked to on this turn? When I have a ton of Kx in my perceived range? Of course you're not... you're going to check back and hope to get to showdown. Same same even if you had AsJc and hit an Ace on the turn... you are checking it back right? If this is not how you would play, then at least put yourself in the shoes of an average reg playing these stakes and accept that this is how they play.

On the other hand... if this average reg has the AsJc and the turn comes a Q, or he has the QJ and the turn comes an Ace (or whatever), he is very often going to barrel these cards. He thinks, "Oooh, a scare card. I will bet now because bluffing is good when scare cards hit, right?"

I would not exactly be ROOTING for an Ace, Queen or Jack to turn, because they do hit his range well. But once they hit the turn I would not actually mind too much if villain bets since he is still likely very polarised - he is not likely to bet a turned pair of Aces, Queens, or Jacks given that our perceived range is very Kx heavy. So we can bluff catch on these 'scare-cards-which-actually-are-not-really-scare-cards' and FORCE opponent to fire again on the river if he is to make us consider folding what he hopes is not a Kx hand (which means opponent is playing guessing games too, it is not all one-way traffic!).

Incidentally... if turn comes an Ace, Queen or Jack and opponent checks back the turn, then we can consider turning our hand into a bluff. The reason we might feel the need to do this is that, as mentioned above, these cards do often mean we have been outdrawn (esp if they are not bet on the turn!). The reason we might feel this play would work is because we can credibly represent a TON of Kx hands, and opponent most likely does not have a Kx hand himself now that the turn has checked through.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 02:36:38 AM by Honeybadger » Logged
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