Live Streams - Hole cards or not?

[The Camel]

Last week I got in a bit of a tizzy about showing my hole cards on a live stream at the EPO.

Although the stream was delayed by 30 minutes, the players at the table were constantly checking their iphones to find out what players held in specific hands.

I think this is fundamentally wrong.

I don't want the other players to know what I rock I am.

Showing of cards totally changes the game imo and shouldn't be allowed.

I have added two polls, one for the players and one for the viewers to see if they have the same issues I do.

While I don't expect to change the minds of Fox or Grosvenor, I would hope if enough people agree with me, DTD might change their minds about showing hole cards in their live streams.

[smashedagain]

I commend you for having the balls to go against the organisers and not show your cards Keith. Having spent so much money on the equipment I can't honestly see Dtd not showing the cards tho. I just don't think it makes for good viewing for joe public either.

[The Camel]

I commend you for having the balls to go against the organisers and not show your cards Keith. Having spent so much money on the equipment I can't honestly see Dtd not showing the cards tho. I just don't think it makes for good viewing for joe public either.

I think the thing that is being forgotten is the players and the integrity of the tournament are much more important than a live stream.

We are playing for tens of thousands of pounds and the showing of cards definitely affects the flow and course of the game.

Ridiculous really.

[tikay]

I commend you for having the balls to go against the organisers and not show your cards Keith. Having spent so much money on the equipment I can't honestly see Dtd not showing the cards tho. I just don't think it makes for good viewing for joe public either.

I think the thing that is being forgotten is the players and the integrity of the tournament are much more important than a live stream.

We are playing for tens of thousands of pounds and the showing of cards definitely affects the flow and course of the game.

Ridiculous really.

....and the PLAYERS have paid an Entry Fee, + the Reg Fee, & get zilch back in recompense, whilst the stream viewers have paid nothing. I believe the players have "rights", whilst the stream viewers do not. 

[action man]

the viewers probably put more in the pool than the players

[TightEnd]

I think that as long as the organisers take the necessary steps to protect the integrity of the game, and make sure the players on a feature are all on the same footing, then its fine

So communication devices need to be taken off players until they are knocked out from a final feature table or players sequestered throughout

DTD does this. Furthermore you cannot access the stream if you are on the premises, whether on the rail or the table with the exception of a locked commentary room in an office

If this is not done, then the only solution is to show the stream in the club for all feature player tables to see (if hole cards are still being shown)

My problem with the EPO was that some players had info others did not

DTD have spent extensively on stream equipment but don't have the problems experienced last week in my opinion

[Boba Fett]

Could always just go back to the days where people show up to play poker tournaments and nobody in the world outside of the casino cares whats going on

[Dewi_cool]

Don't agree with showing hole cards, & I much prefer watching streams without too.

[smashedagain]

I think that as long as the organisers take the necessary steps to protect the integrity of the game, and make sure the players on a feature are all on the same footing, then its fine

So communication devices need to be taken off players until they are knocked out from a final feature table or players sequestered throughout

DTD does this. Furthermore you cannot access the stream if you are on the premises, whether on the rail or the table with the exception of a locked commentary room in an office

If this is not done, then the only solution is to show the stream in the club for all feature player tables to see (if hole cards are still being shown)

My problem with the EPO was that some players had info others did not

DTD have spent extensively on stream equipment but don't have the problems experienced last week in my opinion

mates are still passing information onto players whilst they are railing at Dtd. They just have a mate at home watching who tells the railer the score who then relays the information to the player. They don't even wait for the break to do this and quite often you see players not involved in the hand out if their seats and on the rail chatting to mates.
Dtd do take more steps than most to preserve the integrity of the game but unless they have a seperate room for the feed table, what can they do?

[CHIPPYMAN]

I commend you for having the balls to go against the organisers and not show your cards Keith. Having spent so much money on the equipment I can't honestly see Dtd not showing the cards tho. I just don't think it makes for good viewing for joe public either.

I think the thing that is being forgotten is the players and the integrity of the tournament are much more important than a live stream.

We are playing for tens of thousands of pounds and the showing of cards definitely affects the flow and course of the game.

Ridiculous really.

....and the PLAYERS have paid an Entry Fee, + the Reg Fee, & get zilch back in recompense, whilst the stream viewers have paid nothing. I believe the players have "rights", whilst the stream viewers do not. 

 

[cambridgealex]

It doesn't bother me one bit.

Streams without hole cards require really good commentators to keep it interesting in my opinion, and they seem to be hard to come by these days.

[nirvana]

Personally, I don't really care either way,

So few hands are played I'm not sure there's enough data to turn this into usable information.. even for very clev people.

Pretty sure most of us are already stereotyped by our competition, to a point where the actual cards won't change initial perceptions all that much

[h]

Cards should not be shown IMO

"DTD have spent extensively on stream equipment but don't have the problems experienced last week in my opinion "

  the same problem just less obvious IMO with hole cards shown your actions can potentially be viewed analysed  by a team of players and feed back to your opponents


The Camel exercised a choice  chose not to show

with the technology DTD uses i am not sure a player could opt out of showing

[skolsuper]

Personally, I don't really care either way,

So few hands are played I'm not sure there's enough data to turn this into usable information.. even for very clev people.

Pretty sure most of us are already stereotyped by our competition, to a point where the actual cards won't change initial perceptions all that much

agree with nirvana as usual

[luckyblind]

Interesting debate!

Fair play to you Keith for getting away with not showing your cards, did you actually sign a waiver that said you were required to at the beginning of the tournament?

I have to say that if it was at a tournament that I organised and you signed the waiver you would have been first warned, if you carried on given a penalty and if you persisted after that disqualified. As far I see it is the same as breaking any other tournament rule.

We do get asked occasionally by players who are about to sign these at our events if we will enforce it (we would) and I can only recall one occasion that the player decided not to play rather than sign it.

Personally I think there are better ways to make a live stream more interesting than showing hole cards. However when we live stream an event we do so at the organisers spec and if that includes having hole cards on a delay then that is their choice. The only event that we organise as well as stream that has hole cards is Goliath and I think that is the kind of event it should be reserved for. I also think that events shown live to a massive audience on TV or like the WSOP benefit but I think they should be filmed in a segregated area with no access to the stream or outside world. If you are not segregating then everybody should have access to the stream as it is broadcast. We have displayed a delayed stream in the room before and it went down very well.

At the end of the day the usual rules of supply & demand will come into effect and hole-cards will only be not shown on a regular basis if a) the players stop turning up because of it or b) the organisers decide it is not worth the cost.

In the UK at the moment players have the best choice they have ever had. With the likes of Dtd, Grosvenor, Genting and Pokerstars all either guaranteeing or adding money to events there has never been so much value or choice for the players. This will only stay if the organisers feel that the cost/risks are worth it. Part of the reason they do it is for exposure and live streams are part of exploiting this. Some obviously feel that hole-cards make a big difference, some not. I am sure debates like this will help along the way to how things develop for the future but to say players get nothing in return is not looking at the big picture. There are no games without someone to organise them.

Alex's point is very relevant and I am sure one of the reasons why hole-cards are so popular. A good commentator costs a lot more than having the hole-card technology...

DtD use the same technology as the EPO & ourselves, to not show your cards you just have to make sure they do not go on the RFID reader in front of you.