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Author Topic: Live Streams - Hole cards or not?  (Read 13196 times)
The Camel
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« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2012, 03:01:13 AM »

Anything that increases exposure of the game is a good thing and live streams with hole cards are obv what people want.  It's clearly good for the game and I think that the information that can be gleaned during a few hours at a feature table is marginal at best.

It's not looking like the players "obv want" hole cards to be seen.

4:1 against in the players poll atm.
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« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2012, 03:52:02 AM »

Surprised to read a couple posts to say otherwise but still pretty sure that a hefty majority of viewers would want hole cards for sure. I think a lot of people would tune out without hole cards especially when commentary is normally dull inaccurate babbling about poker, bad strategy theories and constant drops about their own poker career, what they once did and who they used to know (DTD and WSOP coverage excluded).

Why do we want people to keep watching these streams? Because the allure of not only the money and glory advertised but the apparent minimal feeling of fame by being on a live streamed final table is enough to entice their narcissistic personality needs. More people wanting to take their shot is good for the game, right?

So keep the hole cards display but do everything to defend the integrity of the game. Although it's not nice to have your phone taken off you, do this and maybe disable the wifi access to players in the club for the duration of the final table. I suppose there is still a way around this getting a mate from home texting a mate on the rail to feed the info to the participant but increasing the hurdles should reduce the likeliness of it. At DTD the rail is pretty intimate surrounding the FT; maybe they will reconsider the positioning of the feature table where the railers can't be so close to the action. I seem to remember some controversy about alleged signalling from a railer who saw Greek Jack's hole cards on the 'chip leader' FT, so some distance needs to be increased.

I don't think much can be done about players speaking on the breaks unless the club allocates separate areas for FT players and the rest of the club. Complete isolation may be ott Truman Show style. When the information is available to all and if so it's within their right to take full advantage, I would, but people are right in saying that the information is very little over a FT that it can't be utilised all that well. The reason I am personally adamant about players not being able to use the information is because it does add a dimension to the game that wouldn't otherwise be there in a game of poker; where you would play taking into account your perceived image and now you do not know what people know and what they do not know creating an unnatural decision making process. And if there is a live streamed table while there are still more tables in play in the same tournament a game with this factor should not be occurring whilst it is not on the rest of the tables.
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tikay
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« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2012, 06:45:43 AM »

Surprised to read a couple posts to say otherwise but still pretty sure that a hefty majority of viewers would want hole cards for sure. I think a lot of people would tune out without hole cards especially when commentary is normally dull inaccurate babbling about poker, bad strategy theories and constant drops about their own poker career, what they once did and who they used to know (DTD and WSOP coverage excluded).

Why do we want people to keep watching these streams? Because the allure of not only the money and glory advertised but the apparent minimal feeling of fame by being on a live streamed final table is enough to entice their narcissistic personality needs. More people wanting to take their shot is good for the game, right?

So keep the hole cards display but do everything to defend the integrity of the game. Although it's not nice to have your phone taken off you, do this and maybe disable the wifi access to players in the club for the duration of the final table. I suppose there is still a way around this getting a mate from home texting a mate on the rail to feed the info to the participant but increasing the hurdles should reduce the likeliness of it. At DTD the rail is pretty intimate surrounding the FT; maybe they will reconsider the positioning of the feature table where the railers can't be so close to the action. I seem to remember some controversy about alleged signalling from a railer who saw Greek Jack's hole cards on the 'chip leader' FT, so some distance needs to be increased.

I don't think much can be done about players speaking on the breaks unless the club allocates separate areas for FT players and the rest of the club. Complete isolation may be ott Truman Show style. When the information is available to all and if so it's within their right to take full advantage, I would, but people are right in saying that the information is very little over a FT that it can't be utilised all that well. The reason I am personally adamant about players not being able to use the information is because it does add a dimension to the game that wouldn't otherwise be there in a game of poker; where you would play taking into account your perceived image and now you do not know what people know and what they do not know creating an unnatural decision making process. And if there is a live streamed table while there are still more tables in play in the same tournament a game with this factor should not be occurring whilst it is not on the rest of the tables.

Fine Post overall, & you may well be right, but who has the greater rights in this - the viewers, or the players?

If 90% of the viewers wanted to see hole cards, & 0% of the players wanted hole cards shown (& were getting zero recompense), what would your decision be, if you were the organiser?
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jgcblack
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« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2012, 08:49:06 AM »

I guess the players will go wherever the value and guarantees are.. But the viewers might only get involved in x or y or z streams.


Any developments next door?
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« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2012, 09:31:50 AM »

Just stick up the stream in the venue
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scotty77
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« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2012, 09:42:04 AM »

Anything that increases exposure of the game is a good thing and live streams with hole cards are obv what people want.  It's clearly good for the game and I think that the information that can be gleaned during a few hours at a feature table is marginal at best.

It's not looking like the players "obv want" hole cards to be seen.

4:1 against in the players poll atm.

Blonde isn't a fair representation of the poker economy tho.  The user base is generally far more advanced in their poker journey.  We don't need to be converted as we will go wherever the value is. The hole cards cater far more to the casual player and for that reason they should stay.

I would also imagine that you'd get the same kind of feedback over a certain live stream commentator.  Here it would be endless hate.....but if you did a random poll of the stream viewers then most would be very happy with the level of commentary.

We live in a kind of bubble in blonde and it's very easy to forget that and act/think accordingly.
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tikay
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« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2012, 09:58:12 AM »

Anything that increases exposure of the game is a good thing and live streams with hole cards are obv what people want.  It's clearly good for the game and I think that the information that can be gleaned during a few hours at a feature table is marginal at best.

It's not looking like the players "obv want" hole cards to be seen.

4:1 against in the players poll atm.

Blonde isn't a fair representation of the poker economy tho.  The user base is generally far more advanced in their poker journey.  We don't need to be converted as we will go wherever the value is. The hole cards cater far more to the casual player and for that reason they should stay.

I would also imagine that you'd get the same kind of feedback over a certain live stream commentator.  Here it would be endless hate.....but if you did a random poll of the stream viewers then most would be very happy with the level of commentary.

We live in a kind of bubble in blonde and it's very easy to forget that and act/think accordingly.

Line of the week that, Ryan, nice one, & oh so very true.
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2012, 11:44:04 AM »

Let’s jump out of our bubble and look at some universal facts then. Poker is a game of incomplete information. So your job as a poker player is to gather as much info as you can and use it to produce optimum hand playing strategies against the various individuals at the table.

Let me say on behalf of all recreational players that we are underdogs when we sit down at a FT. Our best bet is to withhold as much info as possible from players more adept at processing it than we are. I find it incredible that casual players think it is a good idea to furnish better players with the very info they need to beat us even better. Allowing access to the most vital information gives better players more of an advantage. So really how are streams good for the casual player?

The reality for recreational players is that we are very likely to end up as the suckers at the table. Chilling on the sofa at home this seems like no big deal. But when you’ve battled across multiple days against a partisan local crowd this can feel like you are being cheated. People who are not part of the Blonde bubble have joined this forum to announce that’s exactly how they felt.
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jgcblack
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« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2012, 01:11:20 PM »

Let’s jump out of our bubble and look at some universal facts then. Poker is a game of incomplete information. So your job as a poker player is to gather as much info as you can and use it to produce optimum hand playing strategies against the various individuals at the table.

Let me say on behalf of all recreational players that we are underdogs when we sit down at a FT. Our best bet is to withhold as much info as possible from players more adept at processing it than we are. I find it incredible that casual players think it is a good idea to furnish better players with the very info they need to beat us even better. Allowing access to the most vital information gives better players more of an advantage. So really how are streams good for the casual player?

The reality for recreational players is that we are very likely to end up as the suckers at the table. Chilling on the sofa at home this seems like no big deal. But when you’ve battled across multiple days against a partisan local crowd this can feel like you are being cheated. People who are not part of the Blonde bubble have joined this forum to announce that’s exactly how they felt.

Mantis - with this revelation alone.. realising this is the case i mean.  This single point makes you so much more advanced than your average recreational player.

You have to remember the average recreational player neither knows he is, nor accepts he is.  He may sometimes do something which happens to be a correct response/ reaction to this revelation, but this is almost always an accident.

The streams are good for the casual player because it placates their want for entertainment.. i see the stream as a possible source of income one way or another for me but they see it as fun.

This is the vital difference we need to realize in order to address.
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tikay
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« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2012, 01:21:48 PM »

Let’s jump out of our bubble and look at some universal facts then. Poker is a game of incomplete information. So your job as a poker player is to gather as much info as you can and use it to produce optimum hand playing strategies against the various individuals at the table.

Let me say on behalf of all recreational players that we are underdogs when we sit down at a FT. Our best bet is to withhold as much info as possible from players more adept at processing it than we are. I find it incredible that casual players think it is a good idea to furnish better players with the very info they need to beat us even better. Allowing access to the most vital information gives better players more of an advantage. So really how are streams good for the casual player?

The reality for recreational players is that we are very likely to end up as the suckers at the table. Chilling on the sofa at home this seems like no big deal. But when you’ve battled across multiple days against a partisan local crowd this can feel like you are being cheated. People who are not part of the Blonde bubble have joined this forum to announce that’s exactly how they felt.

Mantis - with this revelation alone.. realising this is the case i mean.  This single point makes you so much more advanced than your average recreational player.

You have to remember the average recreational player neither knows he is, nor accepts he is.  He may sometimes do something which happens to be a correct response/ reaction to this revelation, but this is almost always an accident.

The streams are good for the casual player because it placates their want for entertainment.. i see the stream as a possible source of income one way or another for me but they see it as fun.

This is the vital difference we need to realize in order to address.

 Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 01:23:21 PM by tikay » Logged

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Tal
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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2012, 01:43:21 PM »

Let’s jump out of our bubble and look at some universal facts then. Poker is a game of incomplete information. So your job as a poker player is to gather as much info as you can and use it to produce optimum hand playing strategies against the various individuals at the table.

Let me say on behalf of all recreational players that we are underdogs when we sit down at a FT. Our best bet is to withhold as much info as possible from players more adept at processing it than we are. I find it incredible that casual players think it is a good idea to furnish better players with the very info they need to beat us even better. Allowing access to the most vital information gives better players more of an advantage. So really how are streams good for the casual player?

The reality for recreational players is that we are very likely to end up as the suckers at the table. Chilling on the sofa at home this seems like no big deal. But when you’ve battled across multiple days against a partisan local crowd this can feel like you are being cheated. People who are not part of the Blonde bubble have joined this forum to announce that’s exactly how they felt.

Mantis - with this revelation alone.. realising this is the case i mean.  This single point makes you so much more advanced than your average recreational player.

You have to remember the average recreational player neither knows he is, nor accepts he is.  He may sometimes do something which happens to be a correct response/ reaction to this revelation, but this is almost always an accident.

The streams are good for the casual player because it placates their want for entertainment.. i see the stream as a possible source of income one way or another for me but they see it as fun.

This is the vital difference we need to realize in order to address.

 Roll Eyes

Eye roll of the week contender
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The Camel
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« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2012, 01:45:12 PM »

Anything that increases exposure of the game is a good thing and live streams with hole cards are obv what people want.  It's clearly good for the game and I think that the information that can be gleaned during a few hours at a feature table is marginal at best.

It's not looking like the players "obv want" hole cards to be seen.

4:1 against in the players poll atm.

Blonde isn't a fair representation of the poker economy tho.  The user base is generally far more advanced in their poker journey.  We don't need to be converted as we will go wherever the value is. The hole cards cater far more to the casual player and for that reason they should stay.

I would also imagine that you'd get the same kind of feedback over a certain live stream commentator.  Here it would be endless hate.....but if you did a random poll of the stream viewers then most would be very happy with the level of commentary.

We live in a kind of bubble in blonde and it's very easy to forget that and act/think accordingly.

I think blonde represents the whole gamut of poker players.

From EPT and WSOP Bracelet winners to Mantis and Tikay.

Can't get much more of a wide cross section of the poker playing public than that.
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« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2012, 01:49:25 PM »

Don't really watch live strams.
Don't have the time.

I watch a fair bit on TV because I Sky+ is and watch it in 15-30 minute stints.

I wouldn't watch TV poker without the whole cards being shown.
Last years WSOP where the cards were shown at the end of the hand was bad enough, but blind all the way would bore me.

That said, I'm not a fan of live streams as a concept.
If I was sat at a table and a player I had run a bluff against or made a big laydown to wandered over to the rail half an hour later to talk to a friend and came back to the table knowing what I had, I'd be gutted.

For me, showing hole cards for recordings is fine, but for streams, even with a little bit of a delay is a terrible idea.
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The Camel
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« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2012, 02:06:42 PM »

Don't really watch live strams.
Don't have the time.

I watch a fair bit on TV because I Sky+ is and watch it in 15-30 minute stints.

I wouldn't watch TV poker without the whole cards being shown.
Last years WSOP where the cards were shown at the end of the hand was bad enough, but blind all the way would bore me.

That said, I'm not a fan of live streams as a concept.
If I was sat at a table and a player I had run a bluff against or made a big laydown to wandered over to the rail half an hour later to talk to a friend and came back to the table knowing what I had, I'd be gutted.

For me, showing hole cards for recordings is fine, but for streams, even with a little bit of a delay is a terrible idea.

My thoughts exactly.
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2012, 02:07:16 PM »

Let’s jump out of our bubble and look at some universal facts then. Poker is a game of incomplete information. So your job as a poker player is to gather as much info as you can and use it to produce optimum hand playing strategies against the various individuals at the table.

Let me say on behalf of all recreational players that we are underdogs when we sit down at a FT. Our best bet is to withhold as much info as possible from players more adept at processing it than we are. I find it incredible that casual players think it is a good idea to furnish better players with the very info they need to beat us even better. Allowing access to the most vital information gives better players more of an advantage. So really how are streams good for the casual player?

The reality for recreational players is that we are very likely to end up as the suckers at the table. Chilling on the sofa at home this seems like no big deal. But when you’ve battled across multiple days against a partisan local crowd this can feel like you are being cheated. People who are not part of the Blonde bubble have joined this forum to announce that’s exactly how they felt.

Mantis - with this revelation alone.. realising this is the case i mean.  This single point makes you so much more advanced than your average recreational player.

You have to remember the average recreational player neither knows he is, nor accepts he is.  He may sometimes do something which happens to be a correct response/ reaction to this revelation, but this is almost always an accident.

The streams are good for the casual player because it placates their want for entertainment.. i see the stream as a possible source of income one way or another for me but they see it as fun.

This is the vital difference we need to realize in order to address.


Yo, the fact that most recreational players wont be aware of the disadvantage doesn't make the disadvantage any less real. I would say it's prob a responsibility of experienced players to debate this properly on behalf of the unwitting. Yeah you get ur face on the interweb how fantastic. But the price is the pro sitting next door is seeing ur cards. How fantastic.

The bolded line shows the difference in attitude to streams and hence why it is unfair.

Btw, I will accept your accusation that I am smarter than the average bear.
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