Deal Making Expert Needed

[Yian]

For the first time in a while I decided to visit Birmingham's Broadway casino now that I'm not committed to playing Wednesdays online anymore as I am no longer staked. It was a £100 f/o with 124 runners and the worst structure...in the world!

It is a 12k starting stack and has a 20 minute clock with certain levels missing such as 75/150 and 150/300 and there are often delays meaning not enough hands get played per level. They chip up at every possible opportunity leaving as few chips on the table as possible so people can shove and get called easier and faster. I knew these things about this tournament, I have played it before but I also knew there would be a good turn out with decent money up top.

So 12 get paid and the bubble has burst and there is already a murmur about deals and the likeliness of one happening because there is a cut off time. But I asked the TD myself and there was still just under 2 hours to go so with this very poor structure where average is 13 big blinds, I'm sure there was time to play to a finish. Once we are down to a final table I'm open to the suggestion of deals on this occasion being there is no play left. We lose 3 more players and a final table assembles.

Two uncles of mine who are regulars there and bear the same surname as me have also made the FT, this is relevant to the story as I don't think I would have settled for such a shoddy deal had they not been there. Just prior to the FT, uncle no.1 is chip leader and gets into an all in confrontation with 2nd chip leader for a huge chunk of the chips in play, losing KK against QQ with a Q on the river. So now this guy who was one card away from being out has all these chips and probably is the worst player left.

9 handed deal discussions begin and I always try to be first in with the suggestions. I prefer deals that are made for a portion of the prize pool and staggered and still have money to play for. But getting this across to our chipleader who isn't processing the words that I am saying is not easy. I am far from arrogant in my demeanour but you know, how dare some young guy tell him how much money he should get. Someone decided to intervene and ask him how much he wants where he thinks up a random magical number of £2350 which leaves the other 8 players getting £1177 each irregardless of their chip stack including the guy who has 2 and a half big blinds! The chipleader frightens the other remaining players by saying to play on and the others can't see past getting a firm grip on the £1177. These players have probably never heard the term icm and I have heard of times at this club where chipleader takes 1st prize and the rest chop the rest which is ridiculous.

My uncles are also pushing heavy for this and are claiming it's a good return but I don't agree with settling for something I deem unfair. Why should I put myself in the position where I can make only a maximum of 11 times my money when getting through a field of 124. I find myself appearing the villain in this scenario trying to deny people of their choice here and I let them proceed with the deal they want. I want someone to tell me if I should of just taken the bag and stfu without a fight or someone with an understanding of icm and other chop formulas to explain what was the best thing to do in this scenario. Although it's hard to determine what players would of accepted, with the details I will provide below, how far off fair was this deal?

blinds - 6,000/12,000 soon to be 8,000/16,000
players left - 9


prize payouts

1 £4350
2 £2480
3 £1650
4 £1050
5 £810
6 £560
7 £430
8 £310
9 £250


total chips in play - 1,485,000

chip counts

1 610,500 (chipleader)
2 179,000
3 139,500
4 124,500 (uncle)
5 105,500 (me)
6 102,000 (uncle)
7 98,000
8 88,000
9 38,000 (happy FREAKIN' birthday!)

[nirvana]

Very fair deal imo

[Doobs]

Without checking properly, you have just shy of 9x your starting stack and get just shy of 12x your buy in.  I am reasonsbly sure you are the right side of ICM.  You arent going to be outplaying the others with that stack.  Your uncles aren't getting far from ICM either.

If you don't want to deal say so at the start and play on, if you do the discussions and get a fair one to you, then take it.  Why care what the others are getting? 

[Doobs]

http://www.icmpoker.com/Calculator.aspx

gives you £1125, uncles £1242 and £1103.

Chip leader has effectively given £500 to shorty.

Presumably the missing £100 or so went to the dealers?

[Chompy]

Very fair deal imo

 

[smashedagain]

You need to be Ali Mallu or Lawrence Gosney and say no deals and lets play on. I have played with uncles so many times and understand the peer pressure that you are under. Even I have done 10 way chops being chip leader because its what is expected and part of the "culture" of the game. You knew about the game on entering so needed to use this to your advantage.
I may or may not  have had chance to knock Mr Gosney out on the bubble one night in Sheffield when as sure as eggs were eggs the final table of 10 would not have been played and we would have just chopped the £10k pot and took a bag a piece. As it turned out everyone was that pissed off that Lawrence would not deal that they ended off throwing their chips away and I finished 2nd for over twice as much if I had knocked him out.

[strak33]

Half the people at the broadway fold hands in certain spots becuase of deals / savers etc.

[snoopy1239]

You should ask Paul Parker. I recall him striking a deal where he got more than first prize once.

[Yian]

Maybe I misjudged the fairness of this deal. I don't know why I didn't use an icm calculator myself before writing this post as it appears that I got what was right for my chip stack. I did have access to one and have used them before. I think I was just focussed on the fact that someone with 2bb was going to get £900 more than 9th place money and that chipleader was so easily given the number he blurted out without much thought. If his chips carried extra value then why did mine not compared to the even shorter stacks. But maybe I shouldn't care about what the others are getting as long as I get at least what's right for me. I do think it's odd for everyone bar one to get an even slice and one person to get double almost as if we have declared a winner without playing.

Whilst on this topic though, what about my decision to play these tournaments in the first place; am i not right in thinking that if these kind of deals are a common occurrence then I am putting up £100 plus reg for the chance to win only 11 times my money when I have to get through a field of 124. So if I am never having the chance to play for the advertised prize pool and a chance of making a £4k+ score, is it worth playing these at all?

[Sweetman]

Maybe I misjudged the fairness of this deal. I don't know why I didn't use an icm calculator myself before writing this post as it appears that I got what was right for my chip stack. I did have access to one and have used them before. I think I was just focussed on the fact that someone with 2bb was going to get £900 more than 9th place money and that chipleader was so easily given the number he blurted out without much thought. If his chips carried extra value then why did mine not compared to the even shorter stacks. But maybe I shouldn't care about what the others are getting as long as I get at least what's right for me. I do think it's odd for everyone bar one to get an even slice and one person to get double almost as if we have declared a winner without playing.

Whilst on this topic though, what about my decision to play these tournaments in the first place; am i not right in thinking that if these kind of deals are a common occurrence then I am putting up £100 plus reg for the chance to win only 11 times my money when I have to get through a field of 124. So if I am never having the chance to play for the advertised prize pool and a chance of making a £4k+ score, is it worth playing these at all?

the answer to that should be based on BR and ROI not how much first prize is. 

The deal that was agreed was no too bad for you really ICM, chipleader took a bit of a hit, the shorty swallowed this up by the looks of it.

I know where your coming from though, I used to play there 5-6 times a week and get so fed up with "savers" with 13 players left and deals suggested as soon as the FT starts.
Sometimes it pays to be the table arsehole and just say no to deals, unfortunately though in the cliquey atmosphere there this often leads to the regs taking a dislike to you and soft playing each other 'til you are out so they can re-negotiate their deal.

[jgcblack]

No deals till 3 handed and no bubbles when I'm on the table - I finalled the super50 (i know, i know...) and insisted on this from 10 down... I busted in an unfortunate

JJ vs A10 aipf scenario..
They had completely agreed and finished the deal before I was out of earshot.  Vnh sir's.

Unlucky to the rest of the table, learn to play 'end game' for next time!

[pleno1]

haven't read op but

[ ] thin

[aaron1867]

Big balls & common sense is all you need.

[MC]

haven't read op but

[ ] thin

[  ] correct use of check-box

[doubleup]

haven't read op but

[ ] thin

[  ] correct use of check-box

[  ] levelled?