Live Hand Last Night £1 £1 pot limit (Ricoh Coventry)

[chelseaboy]

I cant be exactly sure on the exact figures but when he makes it 165... 105 more to me I think I was left with about 50-100 behind.

In hindsight and for future reference I should of pushed over the top and shipped it all in instead of just calling.

I went though the hands he could have in my head before calling... I think if I push he passes anyway but then again for only 50-100 more he would more than likely just call me off.

[muckthenuts]

I am pushing the river for sure, from what you have said about this players range from previous hands and how the hand played out I think he either has a set, overpair or top pair which turned the flush draw and rivered 2 pair. When he is raising on the river you can cancel out TT, JJ & QQ which leaves you with K9ss, AA, KK or 99, 77, 66. You beat all of these hands so ship it in!

He can have them but won't raise/call with them

[SuuPRlim]

pot OTR is £126 and £8 of it is dead (not from you or your opponent) yh? so you've put £59 in and you started the hand with £225 which means you'd have had £166 behind?

Either way if you have  between £30 and £100 behind I think calling and going all in are virtually the same thing as the majority of the time he'll have an 8 and you'll be splitting or he'll be bluffing and he'll fold - I think we can agree he's pretty polarised to either an 8, T8 or a bluff when he raises the river, so tbh I honestly don't think there is much difference between going all and just calling his raise on the end.

I think the action before his rive raise is much more interesting for analysis personally

[George2Loose]

I'd shove just because live people will flick in the extra with sets maybe even 2 pair (although admittedly the times he has these isn't very often)

[Donk23]

I'd shove just because live people will flick in the extra with sets maybe even 2 pair (although admittedly the times he has these isn't very often)

easy shove, why flat flop and turn just to flat to a reraise from your lead once you've hit what you wanted?

in other words, why flat flop and turn if you dnt think hitting your straight is good?

what would you do if the turn is a deuce and river  ?

[SuuPRlim]

I'd say he has T8 MORE times than he's raised worse for value. So if say he calls 100% of the time that he isn't "bluffing" you'll prolly show a loss on the call, but the numbers so small it's irrelevant really. Plus if the pot size and numbers in the OP are correct than he has £1 behind.

easy shove, why flat flop and turn just to flat to a reraise from your lead once you've hit what you wanted?

in other words, why flat flop and turn if you dnt think hitting your straight is good?

This isn't really the right thought process, just because we've called for a "draw" (this is a draw but slightly different as we have a pair as well) doesn't mean we MUST raise now we've gotten there, the reason we called is either because we have the immediate equity to do so (almost certainly the case in this hand) or we have the implied odds, i.e we feel likely to get one more bet if we improve our hand. For example in this hand I'd have been pretty happy to have hit the straight on the turn and gotten just his turn bet, by this point on the river we've gotten three more bets out of him which is way more than we could have expected when we called the flop.

Just because we've hit our straight doesn't mean we now have to put the maximum amount of money in the pot, and abandon all caution (not saying we SHOULDN'T shove the river here btw, just saying the thought process of saying "we've hit so lets get it all in" doesn't have to be true.)

Like I said I think the flop check/call and the river lead are the two points of the hand which make for interesting analysis - as for the guy mouthing off after the hand he's just being a bad loser.

[DungBeetle]

"just because we've hit our straight doesn't mean we now have to put the maximum amount of money in the pot, and abandon all caution"

In does in my world.

[SuuPRlim]

"just because we've hit our straight doesn't mean we now have to put the maximum amount of money in the pot, and abandon all caution"

In does in my world.

haha i mean most of the time we will defo want to, don't wanna make a habbit of hitting straights and playing like nits

Just saying because we've called hoping to hit it doesn't mean we have no choice but to get the lot in when we do, as much as most of the time we'll want too.

[chelseaboy]

"just because we've hit our straight doesn't mean we now have to put the maximum amount of money in the pot, and abandon all caution"

In does in my world.

hmmm I was thinking the same.. but had 90% telling me to get it in and the other 10 saying he may have 10 8 just flat and see!

[SuuPRlim]

Let say for example he has 70% of the time just an 8, 10% of the time a bluff, 10% of the time he's raising a worse hand for value 10% of the time he has T8

When you go all in for lets say - £50 more, when he has an 8 or a bluff going all in makes no difference as he'll fold or call it'll chop. The 1/10 times he has T8 he calls and you lose an extra £50, the time he has a worse hand and calls you win an extra £50 so if those numbers were correct, then going all in would be EXACTLY the same as just calling - if you see why?

Now lets suppose out of the 10% of the time he has a worse hand, 10% of this time he folds, and doesn't call - he will ALWAYS call when he has T8, so NOW calling is BETTER than going all in because 1% of the time you'll lose an extra £50 now.

Anways, said the same thing 4 different ways now lol

you only £1 back if the numbers are right? I'd throw it to the dealer in advance and just call

[kinboshi]

Let say for example he has 70% of the time just an 8, 10% of the time a bluff, 10% of the time he's raising a worse hand for value 10% of the time he has T8

When you go all in for lets say - £50 more, when he has an 8 or a bluff going all in makes no difference as he'll fold or call it'll chop. The 1/10 times he has T8 he calls and you lose an extra £50, the time he has a worse hand and calls you win an extra £50 so if those numbers were correct, then going all in would be EXACTLY the same as just calling - if you see why?

Now lets suppose out of the 10% of the time he has a worse hand, 10% of this time he folds, and doesn't call - he will ALWAYS call when he has T8, so NOW calling is BETTER than going all in because 1% of the time you'll lose an extra £50 now.

Anways, said the same thing 4 different ways now lol

you only £1 back if the numbers are right? I'd throw it to the player and tell him to put it towards his taxi home and just call

FYP

[SuuPRlim]

lolol

I played in a vegas game once where a guy won a huge pot and said as a semi-rub cos the guy who lost was on his last bullet "take what you need to get home" and he took $3k and said tyvm i'll get a first class upgrade (he lived in France lol)

[Honeybadger]

HoneyBadger wrote a great article (on PLO admittedly but the theory applies here) that hands have two characterisitcs i) FOCUS and ii) HIT-RATE, this theory, simply explained is that hands with a high focus hit the flop infequently, but very hard, and hands with a high hit-rate hit the flop frequently, but often not that strong, a hand like 6d8d for example will have a high hit-rate you'll flopping flush draws, pairs, gutshots, with backdoor draws very often, but these aren't often hands to play big pots with - a hand like 88 for example would have a very high FOCUS because whereas most of the time you'll have 1pair 8's for the entire hand when you do hit the flop you'll have an almost impenetrable hand (people could easily be stacking off with barely any equity vs you) and be in a position where you're very willing to play a big pot.

Hands with the HIT RATE are hands that you want to have heads up or 3 way - you'll often have a bit of something to be betting or calling with, hands with the focus are the multi-way hands, most of the time you just get in, miss and fold, but when you do hit you want lots of people in the pot to give yourself the best chance of someone having made a weaker hand.

I cant remember where Stu posted that strategy piece he wrote but it was really really good.

Dave, it wasn't an article... it was an email to a friend to help teach him PLO. I sent you a copy of the email to see what you thought about my ideas of focus and hit rate. I could turn it into an article though, or perhaps just a post in my thread?

The concepts of focus and hit rate don't apply as clearly in NLHE as they do in PLO. But they still apply to some extent. However, I'd suggest that a better example of a hand with a high hit rate would be JTs as opposed to 86s. The difference between the two hands is that JTs also flops plenty of quite good one pair hands (it has some high card strength) as well as the straight and flush draws. 86s usually hits a weak bottom pair when it flops a pair - which means it does not really qualify as having a high hit rate IMO. Hands like AK/AQ/KQ etc also have higher hit rates than they have focus (esp the offsuit versions) - i.e. they often flop a good top pair, but rarely flop a 'monster' that you'd want to put a TON of money in with if the SPR is very high.

[SuuPRlim]

arrr yh you're right sorry i wouldn't have posted it if had remembered that I thought you'd posted it on here!

Anyways it was really good, PLO specific certainly, but i thought the example was highly applicable to this spot pre-flop when explaining about why 88 is a great hand to have in a multi-way pot.

[chelseaboy]

Let say for example he has 70% of the time just an 8, 10% of the time a bluff, 10% of the time he's raising a worse hand for value 10% of the time he has T8

When you go all in for lets say - £50 more, when he has an 8 or a bluff going all in makes no difference as he'll fold or call it'll chop. The 1/10 times he has T8 he calls and you lose an extra £50, the time he has a worse hand and calls you win an extra £50 so if those numbers were correct, then going all in would be EXACTLY the same as just calling - if you see why?

Now lets suppose out of the 10% of the time he has a worse hand, 10% of this time he folds, and doesn't call - he will ALWAYS call when he has T8, so NOW calling is BETTER than going all in because 1% of the time you'll lose an extra £50 now.

Anways, said the same thing 4 different ways now lol

you only £1 back if the numbers are right? I'd throw it to the dealer in advance and just call

I understand, my figures initially were rough estimates because I did have a little bit behind more than 1£ but I understand your theory in calling and not pushing in this situation.

The whole hand makes for a decent debate, I know I played the turn bad and then the river I was just hoping for a brick. I have been a member here for sometime but was more a reader than a poster, but the reception has been very good and there is loads of good advice and experience to draw off.

Thank again to all who commented!