But I've got top top!

[Nit Tendencies]

Full Tilt Poker Game #31635657720: Table Afterburner (6 max) - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:17:47 WET - 2012/12/11 [06:17:47 ET - 2012/12/11]
Seats: 6
Seat 1: petyka910 ($138.90)
Seat 2: narak mak mak ($49.10)
Seat 3: cretiiino ($275.25)
Seat 4: KoReaNcHoBO ($105)
Seat 5: 0___Fu___0 ($29.70)
Seat 6: theGrooouuuch ($102.50)
theGrooouuuch posts the small blind of $0.50
petyka910 posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to theGrooouuuch [ ]
narak mak mak has 8 seconds left to act
narak mak mak folds
cretiiino raises to $3
KoReaNcHoBO folds
0___Fu___0 folds
theGrooouuuch raises to $10
petyka910 folds
cretiiino has 15 seconds left to act
cretiiino calls $7
*** FLOP *** [ ] (Total Pot: $21, 2 Players)
theGrooouuuch bets $13.65
cretiiino has 15 seconds left to act
cretiiino calls $13.65
*** TURN *** [ ] [] (Total Pot: $48.30, 2 Players)
theGrooouuuch has 15 seconds left to act
theGrooouuuch has requested TIME
theGrooouuuch ?



I have no reads on the guy other than he's playing a fair amount of hands, and has 4bet my sb 3bet after opening the btn once.  He seems to have some kind of clue but be a bit sticky post flop.

My thoughts on the turn were that he can flat the flop with quite a lot of pair + draw type hands (JT/QT/KT, J9/Q9/K9, Kxcc, AJ/AQ) since he's opening a fair amount from mp and would probably 4bet QQ/KK and AK pre, and possibly 4bet JJ a non 0% of the time too considering how high my 3bet % is (15%) and that we already have a small amount of dynamic and i think I'm generally seen as VERY 3betty and pretty aggro so that combined with the fact that he's already shown he's willing to 4bet probably means that it's not absurd to assume he can have a wide 4bet for value range.

Also, what do we think he does with his two pair hands on the flop, do you think he raises in order not to see bad turns that will kill the action (clubs, 9's, T's and A's).

Does anybody think that betting 40% or less on the turn and folding to a jam is feasible? With the goal of charging the pair+draw hands I mentioned and "finding out where we are" vs his JJJ/KQ/KJ/AT hands?

Does anybody think that betting 55%+ on the turn is best in order to charge the same pair+draw and fd hands as before but for more $$ (surely he wont fold those hands if we bet $32 here) and then call it off getting 4/1?

Does anybody check fold?

[outragous76]

I barrell turn and c/c river to let him bluff just incase he missed - I guess we need to leave 40 back for the illusion of f/e

if he jams turn i probs sigh call it off and hope we out run his 2pr holdings - cant see him holding many sets

[Bully87]

Keep vbetting til he folds/raises.
Just so many combos out there. Need to charge to draw.
Pretty happy folding to aggression and chk calling river brick if he flats turn

[Nit Tendencies]

Are we really deep enough to bet/fold the turn? If we bet $32 and he ships we're going to have to call $50 into $200... Surely we have enough equity to call it off.

[outragous76]

Are we really deep enough to bet/fold the turn? If we bet $32 and he ships we're going to have to call $50 into $200... Surely we have enough equity to call it off.

no - not folding

[Bully87]

Are we really deep enough to bet/fold the turn? If we bet $32 and he ships we're going to have to call $50 into $200... Surely we have enough equity to call it off.

No cant really bf turn. Makes what I said so contradicting.
Hopefully we get to see result post turn.

[Doobs]

The 3 bet seems big pre? Check the flop.  Also has the advantage of balancing our stuff that misses.

[Nit Tendencies]

The 3 bet seems big pre? Check the flop.  Also has the advantage of balancing our stuff that misses.

I hate checking here with no real dynamic with the guy. There is just so much he can call with on the flop that we lose so much value from by checking when he checks back. At some point with this guy I'm going to have to balance, but bear in mind that it's rush so you can go thousands of hands and not actually develop that much dynamic with someone.

And we're OOP 100bbs deep, I don't know any cash game player who would 3bet to smaller than this OOP. We lose so much value, we could even make it bigger pre flop.

[Honeybadger]

3bet size is fine obviously... this is a 100bb cash game hand, not a 40bb tournament hand!

Cbetting flop is fine, it works both for value and protection. I would not expect villain to ever raise this flop.

Sizing on the flop seems a little wrong IMO, since it leaves very awkward stacks on the turn. This may not be a big deal of course, but it is something to think about. If you want to bet three streets then you should bet slightly less on the flop, planning to bet ~half pot turn and jam river.

However, given the texture of the flop and the fact that we are OOP, I prefer a different line here: betting  close to pot on the flop planning to jam the turn for a slight overbet. We don't actually gain anything from there being any money left to bet on the river - all gains from having a river bet left are felt by villain, not us.

This bet flop/jam turn line works really well for our whole range of course... i.e. if we have a set or a flush draw then it is very 'clean' to jam the turn.

[Nit Tendencies]

3bet size is fine obviously... this is a 100bb cash game hand, not a 40bb tournament hand!

Cbetting flop is fine, it works both for value and protection. I would not expect villain to ever raise this flop.

Sizing on the flop seems a little wrong IMO, since it leaves very awkward stacks on the turn. This may not be a big deal of course, but it is something to think about. If you want to bet three streets then you should bet slightly less on the flop, planning to bet ~half pot turn and jam river.

However, given the texture of the flop and the fact that we are OOP, I prefer a different line here: betting  close to pot on the flop planning to jam the turn for a slight overbet. We don't actually gain anything from there being any money left to bet on the river - all gains from having a river bet left are felt by villain, not us.

This bet flop/jam turn line works really well for our whole range of course... i.e. if we have a set or a flush draw then it is very 'clean' to jam the turn.

This is an interesting idea, and I'm going to give it some thought. Seems like it could be an interesting weapon to whip out.

Also I think I agree about my flop sizing, my thoughts at the time were that he is going to have a lot of hands which he can call, therefore I should bet big to charge those hands. Upon reflection although there is credit to this line of thought, I think I do need to take a little bit more care in my sizing in order to set up stacks better on future streets.

Overall I think I do a decent enough job of this, but this pot is an example of where I haven't.

Thanks for the input.

[Nit Tendencies]

Guess this is a decent enough time to post the results.

*** TURN *** [ ] [] (Total Pot: $48.30, 2 Players)
theGrooouuuch has 15 seconds left to act
theGrooouuuch has requested TIME
theGrooouuuch bets $28.25
cretiiino has 15 seconds left to act
cretiiino raises to $251.60, and is all in
theGrooouuuch calls $50.60, and is all in
cretiiino shows [ ]
theGrooouuuch shows [ ]
Uncalled bet of $172.75 returned to cretiiino
*** RIVER *** [ ] [] (Total Pot: $206, 2 Players, 1 All-In)
cretiiino shows two pair, Kings and Queens
theGrooouuuch shows a pair of Kings
cretiiino wins the pot ($203) with two pair, Kings and Queens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $206 | Rake $3
Board: [ ]
Seat 1: petyka910 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: narak mak mak didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: cretiiino showed [ ] and won ($203) with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 4: KoReaNcHoBO didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: 0___Fu___0 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: theGrooouuuch (small blind) showed [ ] and lost with a pair of Kings

[titaniumbean]

check fold flop he's got two pair met

[Nit Tendencies]

check fold flop he's got two pair met

This is the problem with playing on the world wide web, you can't see into their eyes.

[shipitonetime]

If you have no reads on Villain, i think you should go on the assumption that he wont call ur 3 bet light from this spot 100bbs deep. So there is little value in betting turn. As played i would c/f turn. When villain puts any more money in you are doing v badly vs a tight pf range.

[SuuPRlim]

Im going to look really results orientated but was genuinely going to throw c.f turn out there.

b/c defo better than c/cc though I really dont know tbh wats best