So simple yet so interesting

[youthnkzR]

130 into 370 in this tournament and i just can't see myself folding. We can always snap fold turn to any action.

130 into 240*

[david3103]

130 into 370 in this tournament and i just can't see myself folding. We can always snap fold turn to any action.

130 into 240*

we're calling 130 into 370 now - 77% c-bet and we have an overpair to the board and the possibility that the pot will be built further by the two unknowns coming along, we could be calling 130 to win 630.

I'm not v good online but JJ is ahead here enough of the time to make the call worthwhile and get more information on the turn (or pray for a J on the turn)

[youthnkzR]

130 into 370 in this tournament and i just can't see myself folding. We can always snap fold turn to any action.

130 into 240*

we're calling 130 into 370 now - 77% c-bet and we have an overpair to the board and the possibility that the pot will be built further by the two unknowns coming along, we could be calling 130 to win 630.

I'm not v good online but JJ is ahead here enough of the time to make the call worthwhile and get more information on the turn (or pray for a J on the turn)

Ahhh my mistake!

[Deadman]

This really is very interesting, something that would seem an obvious call on flop but actually is much more complicated than that. I think all 3 options are possible but actually calling now seems the worst. Not doing great vs his range cbetting into 3 players and also you still have 2 players behind. Calling definately is the toughest option. I'm liking the raise option best I think.
Raise<Fold<Call.... maybe....still undecided.

[tight4better]

Raising here, folding to any 3 bet.

[Junior Senior]

Results? I certainly aint folding. I like the clickback and re evaluate

[TL900]

Results? I certainly aint folding. I like the clickback and re evaluate

I called flop and folded turn (obv) but as soon as the hand played out i just wondered if there was anything different i could do so posted it in a skype chat got a few different opinions ie raising, so i posted on here.

[titaniumbean]

It's hard to construct a really well rounded range given we don't know what your peeling, i'd rather be raising with a better equity hand than turning JJ into a bluff. And when he cbets 4 way then bets the turn i'm always folding and feeling dirty so may well do what you call 'the vagina fold'. Don't think I do that play enough tbh. <3vag

[muckthenuts]

i'd rather be raising with a better equity hand than turning JJ into a bluff.

Yeah i agree, not the best hand to do this with. So i think it's not worth fighting for the pot at t20 when he just has AA/KK/QQ/TT too high a % of the time in this spot (which is hardly ever folding flop in a $27) when our hand has such little equity vs that range. A heads up pot where his cbet range can be wider, or if we held like QJdd i like clicking it back a lot more.

Personally i think fold > call  > raise.

[cambridgealex]

Great thread. So easy to overlook spots like this and write them off as "standard" when we call flop fold turn everytime without thinking about it.

Just thinking out loud a bit, muckthenuts just posted about them never folding QQ-AA in a $27, which is of course reasonable. Can we then extend this to say that since we are now implying he is on average going to be a weak player with poor fundamentals, he might be cbetting this flop with a wider range than we are giving him credit for?

You see a lot of what I would call "bad" cbets at this level, people betting in this spot with AK, QJ, or hands with even less equity perhaps. He could also be betting his smaller pocket pairs, or suited connectors that have paired up like 78s or T9s.

So what you could conclude is that folding can never be correct - since if he's good enough to be cbetting this board "correctly" and have a strong range that crushes us, he's good enough to fold QQ-AA by the river? And if he's bad enough to be cbetting with too weak a range, we should call and fold turn, as is "standard"?

So folding would just be an incorrect option when we don't know whether to raise or just call.

Make sense? I'm not saying I agree with this btw, just thinking outside the box...

[TL900]

Yeah everything you said makes sense Alex. I don't think an 18/14 semi reg is gona just be betting AK/QJ type hands here. He can very well have some suited connectors/88-99 type hands. Im not sure what he does with 66 so its kinda hard to judge. Which makes the spot more interesting i guess. Im still not sold on which option is best.

Get JB itt ffs. <3

[cambridgealex]

Get JB itt ffs. <3

Agree!

Feeling like causing some mischief this afternoon, some #realjohnblacktweets on the way I reckon. Care to join?

[TL900]

Get JB itt ffs. <3

Agree!

Feeling like causing some mischief this afternoon, some #realjohnblacktweets on the way I reckon. Care to join?

would love to

[cambridgealex]

am looking through his TR from the Vic for inspiration (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=56559.msg1683280#msg1683280) so much material in there, might use actual quotes from it lol

[WotRTheChances]

This really is very interesting, something that would seem an obvious call on flop but actually is much more complicated than that. I think all 3 options are possible but actually calling now seems the worst. Not doing great vs his range cbetting into 3 players and also you still have 2 players behind. Calling definately is the toughest option. I'm liking the raise option best I think.
Raise<Fold<Call.... maybe....still undecided.

Good use of inequalities imo, backs up your statement well