Moving to cash

[pleno1]

john is completely right and gemini kings couldnt be more incorrect.

in fact, "play in more games where you have no fold equity" would be a better statement/advice.

any game in England, except some rare games in Notts at 500nl or below is going to be very soft. I'd suggest getting a coach for around 5 hours to just go through things and make sure you don't have ginormous leaks.

Then you will be confident, a lot more skilled and be in a better path to crush.

[madlondoner]

Am a grinder at these limits. You should start small on only 1/1 games and build up your confidence and feel for the game. I wouldn't recommend starting online as completely different players and skills are required. You should be
Open a lot bigger than u would for mtts or online cash. Value bet thinner and don't worry about being unbalanced vs people who would never notice

[Gemini Kings]

john is completely right and gemini kings couldnt be more incorrect.

in fact, "play in more games where you have no fold equity" would be a better statement/advice.

any game in England, except some rare games in Notts at 500nl or below is going to be very soft. I'd suggest getting a coach for around 5 hours to just go through things and make sure you don't have ginormous leaks.

Then you will be confident, a lot more skilled and be in a better path to crush.

So where do you play your live cash games Pleno? I take it you are making a fortune!

[pleno1]

even if i had never played a live cash game in my life i would still be right lol.

anyway not going to argue on blonde on nye, enjoy your night and one day you will get a "aha!" moment and realise.

hny

[Doobs]

Bankroll management and game selection is key if you're playing with the sole purpose of making money.

So true. Tournaments are renowned for high variance but sit in the wrong cash game and it is as near to pure gambling as possible and the outcome will largely be down to luck.

To make money live you need an active table but not suicidally so.

You also need to keep your stack deep enough to maintain fold equity and prevent multi way pots with your big pairs.

NO NO NO!

(don't mean it to sound rude... but this thinking, is wrong!)

You don't need to be afraid and worried with your big pairs.  They are good hands, and you want to win money with good hands.  But you need to be able to just bin them when someone check raises or does something else equally 'strong'.  They are one pair.

I'd happily take AA multiway and bet, bet, bet almost any runout... people aren't normally going to call, call, call with their sets/ two purrs....  So you only get called by one pair hands, and AA is the best one = we win.




Clearly, if you have the opportunity and stack depth to get some money in preflop with a big pair, then do so.  But making it £220 over a couple of opens of £10 to ensure 'they don't call with A2o' is just incorrect thinking.
You're using one line of logic to justify doing something that won't ensure the outcome you require.

I can give you an example to prevent you inventing scenarios as you did in your reply.

while playing in the game I described above I saw multiway pots where 4, 5 or 6 players were calling large preflop raises. I am under the gun with KK. Knowing that a raise of £15 to £20 would result in several callers and a family pot I limped in for £2. Like clockwork the player to my left raised to £20 and got two callers. The pot is now £65. Big enough for me to take it down preflop so I shoved all in. My error was allowing my stack to fall to £140 prior to this hand. All 3 players called. I was all in so had no more control of the hand. Betting continued and it went to showdown. I hit a set but still lost.

Although this game was hyper loose and may not be typical, I have played in many such games so they are by no means rare. Now, if I had maintained a larger stack I would have had greater fold equity in this hyper loose game and would probably have won the pot pre flop which is preferable to getting three callers in a pot in which I have no further control.

Flawed thinking?

I am profitable in live cash so I will continue with my flawed thinking because it works.

Maybe some day I'll get to watch you "crush live cash"


Ps There are many other reasons why it is good to play deep stacked, one is to stack off players who over value big pairs.

I dream of getting my entire stack in 4 way holding KK. 

Surely you should just run the equities rather than tell us the results of one hand?

[pleno1]

also just one addition, you say you are profitable in live cash, how many hands do you think you have played lifetime? Because you are winning doesn't mean you have been profitable or will be profitable next year. This isn't saying you aren't, I'm just saying your argument probably means nothing.

Also if I won 50k one night in Marbella it wouldn't make me any more qualified either.

[jgcblack]

also just one addition, you say you are profitable in live cash, how many hands do you think you have played lifetime? Because you are winning doesn't mean you have been profitable or will be profitable next year. This isn't saying you aren't, I'm just saying your argument probably means nothing.

Also if I won 50k one night in Marbella it wouldn't make me any more qualified either.

but you didn't win 50k, you got rivered....

<3 you mate!

[WotRTheChances]

Bankroll management and game selection is key if you're playing with the sole purpose of making money.

So true. Tournaments are renowned for high variance but sit in the wrong cash game and it is as near to pure gambling as possible and the outcome will largely be down to luck.

To make money live you need an active table but not suicidally so.

You also need to keep your stack deep enough to maintain fold equity and prevent multi way pots with your big pairs.

NO NO NO!

(don't mean it to sound rude... but this thinking, is wrong!)

You don't need to be afraid and worried with your big pairs.  They are good hands, and you want to win money with good hands.  But you need to be able to just bin them when someone check raises or does something else equally 'strong'.  They are one pair.

I'd happily take AA multiway and bet, bet, bet almost any runout... people aren't normally going to call, call, call with their sets/ two purrs....  So you only get called by one pair hands, and AA is the best one = we win.




Clearly, if you have the opportunity and stack depth to get some money in preflop with a big pair, then do so.  But making it £220 over a couple of opens of £10 to ensure 'they don't call with A2o' is just incorrect thinking.
You're using one line of logic to justify doing something that won't ensure the outcome you require.

while playing in the game I described above I saw multiway pots where 4, 5 or 6 players were calling large preflop raises. I am under the gun with KK. Knowing that a raise of £15 to £20 would result in several callers and a family pot I limped in for £2. Like clockwork the player to my left raised to £20 and got two callers. The pot is now £65. Big enough for me to take it down preflop so I shoved all in. My error was allowing my stack to fall to £140 prior to this hand. All 3 players called. I was all in so had no more control of the hand. Betting continued and it went to showdown. I hit a set but still lost.

Although this game was hyper loose and may not be typical, I have played in many such games so they are by no means rare. Now, if I had maintained a larger stack I would have had greater fold equity in this hyper loose game and would probably have won the pot pre flop which is preferable to getting three callers in a pot in which I have no further control.

Flawed thinking?

This is pretty funny. You make is sound like getting KK in pre 4-ways is some sort of bad thing? If someone suggested i could run that scenario every time i play a hand i'd be pretty rich.

Obv dont sit short, if you think you have an edge in the game you want to have a stack to be able to use that edge both post and pre-flop.

p.s. Justice was done for limp/jamming pre. Most tilting thing ever.

[PeeJay]

Limp raising always gets punished.

[Rod]

I played in such a game recently. It was 1/2 NLH with a £500 max sit down and involved 4 or 5 players who were playing well below their bank roll limits so played very loose. A £10 to £25 pre flop raise resulted in 4 or 5 callers and sometimes more. Are you telling me you that you are happy to take AA or KK 5 way to the flop.

My post advised that you should have a sufficiently large enough stack to 3 bet big enough to take the pot down or at least limit the number of callers seeing the flop (in a very loose game, I will repeat IN A VERY LOOSE GAME)

The above can be demonstrated to be incorrect though. We do want them to call, do the Maths, it's easy even I can do it.

We should never be sat in a cash game 70BB deep, it is a really awkward stack size. As it happens though the spot you have come across is ideal for you with your stack. You seem to have played the hand perfectly as long as you can be pretty sure this spot is going to happen as shoving now is a fine play. You don't mind if they all fold and you take down £65 as it adds a nice percentage to you stack however you prefer callers.

Now just assuming that all of the callers have really loose calling ranges of say

55+
Any two broadway
65s+
Any suited ace

Against this range you have about 50% equity if they all call.

ProPokerTools Holdem Simulation Powered by the Odds Oracle (http://propokertools.com/odds_oracle)

[table=head]Player | Equity | Wins Hi | Ties Hi
KK | 51.0629% | 50.5970% | 1.0755%
AA-55,AK-AT,KQ-KT,QJ-QT,JT,Ax9x-Ax2x,Tx9x,9x8x,8x7x,7x6x,6x5x | 16.3509% | 15.6225% | 1.6138%
AA-55,AK-AT,KQ-KT,QJ-QT,JT,Ax9x-Ax2x,Tx9x,9x8x,8x7x,7x6x,6x5x | 16.2719% | 15.5557% | 1.5890%
AA-55,AK-AT,KQ-KT,QJ-QT,JT,Ax9x-Ax2x,Tx9x,9x8x,8x7x,7x6x,6x5x | 16.3142% | 15.5842% | 1.6168%
[/table]

So about 50% of the time you win £420 (your £140 stack called in three spots)
50% of the time you lose £140

On average over 100 hands:-

You win 50x£420= £21000 (50% of the time multiplted my the amount you win when you win the hand)
You lose 50x£140= £7000 (50% of the time multiplted my the amount you lose when you lose the hand)

so you end up £14000 ahead (as an average) which is £140 per hand, more than twice as much as if they all fold and you win the £65. Even if we only get one caller we become a 76% favourite against that range which means we win about £103.20 per hand. Two callers wins you an average of £128.40. So we want more callers actually.

This shows the importance of playing within your bankroll as if you would rather shove and take down the £65 than get in the spot where you will win the most money long term then the chances are you should be playing smaller. I always like to be sat 100BB deep as an absolute minimum. In this spot shoving £200 would be fine as well and would win you more money.

I would agree with the advice that playing online is the best way to learn cash games and anybody who beats $25nl on Pokerstars should easily beat any 50p/£1 cash game I have come across in the county, yeah they play slightly different but adjusting from online to live is easy. They are bigger though so you still need to play within your bankroll. Although taking a shot is fine.

[skolsuper]

Gemini Kings and jcgblack ITT:

[Doobs]

I played in such a game recently. It was 1/2 NLH with a £500 max sit down and involved 4 or 5 players who were playing well below their bank roll limits so played very loose. A £10 to £25 pre flop raise resulted in 4 or 5 callers and sometimes more. Are you telling me you that you are happy to take AA or KK 5 way to the flop.

My post advised that you should have a sufficiently large enough stack to 3 bet big enough to take the pot down or at least limit the number of callers seeing the flop (in a very loose game, I will repeat IN A VERY LOOSE GAME)

The above can be demonstrated to be incorrect though. We do want them to call, do the Maths, it's easy even I can do it.

We should never be sat in a cash game 70BB deep, it is a really awkward stack size. As it happens though the spot you have come across is ideal for you with your stack. You seem to have played the hand perfectly as long as you can be pretty sure this spot is going to happen as shoving now is a fine play. You don't mind if they all fold and you take down £65 as it adds a nice percentage to you stack however you prefer callers.

Now just assuming that all of the callers have really loose calling ranges of say

55+
Any two broadway
65s+
Any suited ace

Against this range you have about 50% equity if they all call.

ProPokerTools Holdem Simulation Powered by the Odds Oracle (http://propokertools.com/odds_oracle)

[table=head]Player | Equity | Wins Hi | Ties Hi
KK | 51.0629% | 50.5970% | 1.0755%
AA-55,AK-AT,KQ-KT,QJ-QT,JT,Ax9x-Ax2x,Tx9x,9x8x,8x7x,7x6x,6x5x | 16.3509% | 15.6225% | 1.6138%
AA-55,AK-AT,KQ-KT,QJ-QT,JT,Ax9x-Ax2x,Tx9x,9x8x,8x7x,7x6x,6x5x | 16.2719% | 15.5557% | 1.5890%
AA-55,AK-AT,KQ-KT,QJ-QT,JT,Ax9x-Ax2x,Tx9x,9x8x,8x7x,7x6x,6x5x | 16.3142% | 15.5842% | 1.6168%
[/table]

So about 50% of the time you win £420 (your £140 stack called in three spots)
50% of the time you lose £140

On average over 100 hands:-

You win 50x£420= £21000 (50% of the time multiplted my the amount you win when you win the hand)
You lose 50x£140= £7000 (50% of the time multiplted my the amount you lose when you lose the hand)

so you end up £14000 ahead (as an average) which is £140 per hand, more than twice as much as if they all fold and you win the £65. Even if we only get one caller we become a 76% favourite against that range which means we win about £103.20 per hand. Two callers wins you an average of £128.40. So we want more callers actually.

This shows the importance of playing within your bankroll as if you would rather shove and take down the £65 than get in the spot where you will win the most money long term then the chances are you should be playing smaller. I always like to be sat 100BB deep as an absolute minimum. In this spot shoving £200 would be fine as well and would win you more money.

I would agree with the advice that playing online is the best way to learn cash games and anybody who beats $25nl on Pokerstars should easily beat any 50p/£1 cash game I have come across in the county, yeah they play slightly different but adjusting from online to live is easy. They are bigger though so you still need to play within your bankroll. Although taking a shot is fine.

Much as I think Gemini kings is thinking wrongly here, you can't assign those wide ranges to all 3 opponents and call it a proof. 

[smashedagain]

Gemini Kings and jcgblack ITT:

lol

[rfgqqabc]

5 figure year is some claim jb, you'll need to run good unless your live grinding like every off week. A lot of sense from pleno Itt unsurprisingly

[jgcblack]

5 figure year is some claim jb, you'll need to run good unless your live grinding like every off week. A lot of sense from pleno Itt unsurprisingly

Unsure which I am in that vid... Hoping to be a Jedi obv.

My rant was drunken, but I stand by it.