Thatcher dead?

[tonytats]

It's amazing (to me) how many intelligent, articulate, people, are completely one-eyed on this subject.

I would pay zero attention to anyone who thinks Thatcher was 100% wonderful, and refuses to accept she had faults, and made errors, just as I would not listen to anyone who claims that everything she did was bad, and will not acknowledge her strengths, or achievements.
This thread pretty much proves that debate on the subject is pointless, as the majority of people who want to talk about her, are completely closed-minded to the other side.

The most divisive British public figure of any of our lives, that is for sure.

2 very good quotes ,I quite liked her ,my dad loathes her ,we always argue about her when talk gets round to her ,my dad blames her for mine closures , I blame Arthur scar gill ,he blames her for the decline in British manufacturing and reliance on the stock market / city / banking to keep us farting in silk pants ,the wheels of which have come off that recently

[luther101]

About 1% of our coal is imported from the EU, a lot of that might be from Germany where they continue to bend EU rules on state subsidies - but I'd rather have their cheap coal and not have their polluted atmosphere than doing it ourselves.

Like Tighty said fossil fuels are the least preferred option because of their CO2 impact, if we could do it as cheap as Australia or Colombia we'd probably get over it - but as we can't, and as renewables won't produce enough we're left with as much power as nuclear can produce with the left over being run on imports which aren't just cheaper - but massively cheaper - than if we did it ourselves.

I was replying to Rich about the 1981 situation, and the Tories - at the time - closed our mines, and imported coal from (the very thankful) subsidized German coal fields.

I'm not being rude Jon, but you appear to have have little idea how the present day fuel from which Uk electricity is sourced with your 'CO2 impact' comment.

Would it surprise you that in the last quarter of 2012 'at 35.4%, the share of coal-fired generation reached its highest third-quarter share in 14 years, keeping well ahead of the 28.2% share held by gas and 22.3% stake held by nuclear generation'.

That's 63.6% of very 'CO2 impact' fuel being burnt to keep your laptop humming.

The point I was trying to make to the Thatcher Apologists who believe Maggie was right to smash our miners is that maybe a bloody island built on 300 years of coal reserves should be contributing more than 300k tons 'of the 11.2m tonnes of coal burned in the third quarter in 2012'.

Maybe having our own coal industry might be good for UK jobs?

[tonytats]

Quite right about reinvesting in coal mines , but when we shut the mines we should have followed the French example and kick started nuclear generatin power plants

Have you ever seen Luke sky walker or jean luc Picard or any sci/ fi futurist film where people are shovelling coal into boilers?to power machines

[Jon MW]

About 1% of our coal is imported from the EU, a lot of that might be from Germany where they continue to bend EU rules on state subsidies - but I'd rather have their cheap coal and not have their polluted atmosphere than doing it ourselves.

Like Tighty said fossil fuels are the least preferred option because of their CO2 impact, if we could do it as cheap as Australia or Colombia we'd probably get over it - but as we can't, and as renewables won't produce enough we're left with as much power as nuclear can produce with the left over being run on imports which aren't just cheaper - but massively cheaper - than if we did it ourselves.

I was replying to Rich about the 1981 situation, and the Tories - at the time - closed our mines, and imported coal from (the very thankful) subsidized German coal fields.

I'm not being rude Jon, but you appear to have have little idea how the present day fuel from which Uk electricity is sourced with your 'CO2 impact' comment.

Would it surprise you that in the last quarter of 2012 'at 35.4%, the share of coal-fired generation reached its highest third-quarter share in 14 years, keeping well ahead of the 28.2% share held by gas and 22.3% stake held by nuclear generation'.

That's 63.6% of very 'CO2 impact' fuel being burnt to keep your laptop humming.

The point I was trying to make to the Thatcher Apologists who believe Maggie was right to smash our miners is that maybe a bloody island built on 300 years of coal reserves should be contributing more than 300k tons 'of the 11.2m tonnes of coal burned in the third quarter in 2012'.

Maybe having our own coal industry might be good for UK jobs?

I'm pretty sure I covered the fact that we still had to rely on a lot of coal (primarily as imports) in the post you quoted???

11m tonnes sounds like a lot but it's nothing compared to the likes of countries like Australia with their 76 billion tonnes of reserves, and other countries like them. And their coal is in vastly bigger seams with less impurities - i.e. we can never ever get it cheaper than from them.

Even when you take in to account the jobs it would create and the multiplier effect on the economy that would have - it's still cheaper to import it.

All that coal in our ground - might be a handy reserve a long way down the line when other people start running out though, I think it's probably best to keep it their until then.

[luther101]

Quite right about reinvesting in coal mines , but when we shut the mines we should have followed the French example and kick started nuclear generatin power plants

Have you ever seen Luke sky walker or jean luc Picard or any sci/ fi futurist film where people are shovelling coal into boilers?to power machines

Exactly     ....       have you ever seen a British Government/company invest in capital projects/research with the same relish as the Germans, Japanese, or Chinese?

(Your analogy is a bit shit though: a nuclear plant produces steam, to drive a turbine, to produce power         .....       Arkwright was doing all that bollox in the mid 18th century)

[luther101]

About 1% of our coal is imported from the EU, a lot of that might be from Germany where they continue to bend EU rules on state subsidies - but I'd rather have their cheap coal and not have their polluted atmosphere than doing it ourselves.

Like Tighty said fossil fuels are the least preferred option because of their CO2 impact, if we could do it as cheap as Australia or Colombia we'd probably get over it - but as we can't, and as renewables won't produce enough we're left with as much power as nuclear can produce with the left over being run on imports which aren't just cheaper - but massively cheaper - than if we did it ourselves.

I was replying to Rich about the 1981 situation, and the Tories - at the time - closed our mines, and imported coal from (the very thankful) subsidized German coal fields.

I'm not being rude Jon, but you appear to have have little idea how the present day fuel from which Uk electricity is sourced with your 'CO2 impact' comment.

Would it surprise you that in the last quarter of 2012 'at 35.4%, the share of coal-fired generation reached its highest third-quarter share in 14 years, keeping well ahead of the 28.2% share held by gas and 22.3% stake held by nuclear generation'.

That's 63.6% of very 'CO2 impact' fuel being burnt to keep your laptop humming.

The point I was trying to make to the Thatcher Apologists who believe Maggie was right to smash our miners is that maybe a bloody island built on 300 years of coal reserves should be contributing more than 300k tons 'of the 11.2m tonnes of coal burned in the third quarter in 2012'.

Maybe having our own coal industry might be good for UK jobs?

I'm pretty sure I covered the fact that we still had to rely on a lot of coal (primarily as imports) in the post you quoted???

11m tonnes sounds like a lot but it's nothing compared to the likes of countries like Australia with their 76 billion tonnes of reserves, and other countries like them. And their coal is in vastly bigger seams with less impurities - i.e. we can never ever get it cheaper than from them.

Even when you take in to account the jobs it would create and the multiplier effect on the economy that would have - it's still cheaper to import it.

All that coal in our ground - might be a handy reserve a long way down the line when other people start running out though, I think it's probably best to keep it their until then.

I thought you were worried about CO2 emissions     ....     what's the 'Carbon Footprint' on shipping coal 16,000 miles from Australia?

The new ethos is Sustainability my man!

[tonytats]

Quite right about reinvesting in coal mines , but when we shut the mines we should have followed the French example and kick started nuclear generatin power plants

Have you ever seen Luke sky walker or jean luc Picard or any sci/ fi futurist film where people are shovelling coal into boilers?to power machines

Exactly     ....       have you ever seen a British Government/company invest in capital projects/research with the same relish as the Germans, Japanese, or Chinese?

(Your analogy is a bit shit though: a nuclear plant produces steam, to drive a turbine, to produce power         .....       Arkwright was doing all that bollox in the mid 18th century)

Not really try getting a coalman out to the delta quadrant for a delivery 

[neeko]

Quite right about reinvesting in coal mines , but when we shut the mines we should have followed the French example and kick started nuclear generatin power plants

Have you ever seen Luke sky walker or jean luc Picard or any sci/ fi futurist film where people are shovelling coal into boilers?to power machines

Exactly     ....       have you ever seen a British Government/company invest in capital projects/research with the same relish as the Germans, Japanese, or Chinese?

China have bought half the oil fields in Africa and South America, Japan spent the '80's buying any real estate that was for sale in the US - the Germans bought a lot of villas in Spain.(oops)

All countries invest abroad, china is now doing exactly what the UK did in the C19th.

[Rod Paradise]

About 1% of our coal is imported from the EU, a lot of that might be from Germany where they continue to bend EU rules on state subsidies - but I'd rather have their cheap coal and not have their polluted atmosphere than doing it ourselves.

Like Tighty said fossil fuels are the least preferred option because of their CO2 impact, if we could do it as cheap as Australia or Colombia we'd probably get over it - but as we can't, and as renewables won't produce enough we're left with as much power as nuclear can produce with the left over being run on imports which aren't just cheaper - but massively cheaper - than if we did it ourselves.

WTF? So we import it and do what with it exactly? Suck the power out of it?

If nuclear power is so clean where are the nuclear facilities in London?

[neeko]

Exactly     ....       have you ever seen a British Government/company invest in capital projects/research with the same relish as the Germans, Japanese, or Chinese?
)

Rolls Royce, JCB, BAe, Dyson, ARM, Glaxo, Astra Zeneca, ....  The UK does invest a lot in R&D and the UK universities are not exactly in the same league as North Korea.

[Jon MW]

About 1% of our coal is imported from the EU, a lot of that might be from Germany where they continue to bend EU rules on state subsidies - but I'd rather have their cheap coal and not have their polluted atmosphere than doing it ourselves.

Like Tighty said fossil fuels are the least preferred option because of their CO2 impact, if we could do it as cheap as Australia or Colombia we'd probably get over it - but as we can't, and as renewables won't produce enough we're left with as much power as nuclear can produce with the left over being run on imports which aren't just cheaper - but massively cheaper - than if we did it ourselves.

WTF? So we import it and do what with it exactly? Suck the power out of it?

If nuclear power is so clean where are the nuclear facilities in London?

A bit of a mixed thread because of the cross purposes of supporting nuclear but also needing coal - we reduce our co2 by subsidising nuclear power - but we don't have enough of it to do without coal (by quite a long way). Mining causes pollution and is expensive, we avoid that if other people do it for us. I think is my argument for the status quo.

There was a nuclear station at dungeness wasn't there? in nuclear terms if that went pear shaped it would be 'close enough' to London to matter.

[luther101]

About 1% of our coal is imported from the EU, a lot of that might be from Germany where they continue to bend EU rules on state subsidies - but I'd rather have their cheap coal and not have their polluted atmosphere than doing it ourselves.

Like Tighty said fossil fuels are the least preferred option because of their CO2 impact, if we could do it as cheap as Australia or Colombia we'd probably get over it - but as we can't, and as renewables won't produce enough we're left with as much power as nuclear can produce with the left over being run on imports which aren't just cheaper - but massively cheaper - than if we did it ourselves.

WTF? So we import it and do what with it exactly? Suck the power out of it?

If nuclear power is so clean where are the nuclear facilities in London?

A bit of a mixed thread because of the cross purposes of supporting nuclear but also needing coal - we reduce our co2 by subsidising nuclear power - but we don't have enough of it to do without coal (by quite a long way). Mining causes pollution and is expensive, we avoid that if other people do it for us. I think is my argument for the status quo.

There was a nuclear station at dungeness wasn't there? in nuclear terms if that went pear shaped it would be 'close enough' to London to matter.

Eh    ....    mining produces the coal, it's only when it's BURNT, to produce power, pollutants are emitted. Carbon capture in modern plants reduces many noxious emissions.

[Sheriff Fatman]

We should at least remember fondly her greatest achievement - she was the undoubted star of Spitting Image.

How many people nowadays could name half of the cabinet?  Thanks to the late Sunday night viewing, pretty much everyone at school could do so for the years that it ran.

[sovietsong]

Pretty gutted to be honest.  I was really looking forward to "The Unforgettable Jeremy Beadle"

[The-Crow]

highlights on youtube  24 minutes in