Guess Ivey wants his dough...

[Cf]

Even if Ivey had noticed the flaw and taken advantage... so what? Casinos fault for putting on the game surely.

Unless they're about to contact everyone who had played and lost when there were imperfect cards and offer them refunds then I don't see how they've got a leg to stand on.

True, they should pay up for this reason. I still question Ivey's morals though. It's pretty close to stealing.

Sorry could either of you explain a) who should get refunds and b) why should they get refunds?

Well, if the casinos argument is "the cards were marked therefore the game wasn't fair so we're not paying out" then surely they should also be refunding the losses of anyone who played in this "unfair game"?

[doubleup]

Even if Ivey had noticed the flaw and taken advantage... so what? Casinos fault for putting on the game surely.

Unless they're about to contact everyone who had played and lost when there were imperfect cards and offer them refunds then I don't see how they've got a leg to stand on.

True, they should pay up for this reason. I still question Ivey's morals though. It's pretty close to stealing.

Sorry could either of you explain a) who should get refunds and b) why should they get refunds?

Well, if the casinos argument is "the cards were marked therefore the game wasn't fair so we're not paying out" then surely they should also be refunding the losses of anyone who played in this "unfair game"?

Do you actually know the rules of Punto?

[Cf]

Even if Ivey had noticed the flaw and taken advantage... so what? Casinos fault for putting on the game surely.

Unless they're about to contact everyone who had played and lost when there were imperfect cards and offer them refunds then I don't see how they've got a leg to stand on.

True, they should pay up for this reason. I still question Ivey's morals though. It's pretty close to stealing.

Sorry could either of you explain a) who should get refunds and b) why should they get refunds?

Well, if the casinos argument is "the cards were marked therefore the game wasn't fair so we're not paying out" then surely they should also be refunding the losses of anyone who played in this "unfair game"?

Do you actually know the rules of Punto?

Only vaguely. Not a game I play.

[doubleup]

Even if Ivey had noticed the flaw and taken advantage... so what? Casinos fault for putting on the game surely.

Unless they're about to contact everyone who had played and lost when there were imperfect cards and offer them refunds then I don't see how they've got a leg to stand on.

True, they should pay up for this reason. I still question Ivey's morals though. It's pretty close to stealing.

Sorry could either of you explain a) who should get refunds and b) why should they get refunds?

Well, if the casinos argument is "the cards were marked therefore the game wasn't fair so we're not paying out" then surely they should also be refunding the losses of anyone who played in this "unfair game"?

Do you actually know the rules of Punto?

Only vaguely. Not a game I play.

well the rank of the card could be written on their backs in fluorescent green and the punter wouldn't be disadvantaged in any way.

[Cf]

Even if Ivey had noticed the flaw and taken advantage... so what? Casinos fault for putting on the game surely.

Unless they're about to contact everyone who had played and lost when there were imperfect cards and offer them refunds then I don't see how they've got a leg to stand on.

True, they should pay up for this reason. I still question Ivey's morals though. It's pretty close to stealing.

Sorry could either of you explain a) who should get refunds and b) why should they get refunds?

Well, if the casinos argument is "the cards were marked therefore the game wasn't fair so we're not paying out" then surely they should also be refunding the losses of anyone who played in this "unfair game"?

Do you actually know the rules of Punto?

Only vaguely. Not a game I play.

well the rank of the card could be written on their backs in fluorescent green and the punter wouldn't be disadvantaged in any way.

Yeah, but if they're going to withhold winnings then it essentially means they're freerolling. Keep the money if they win, make money anyway if they don't.

[doubleup]

Even if Ivey had noticed the flaw and taken advantage... so what? Casinos fault for putting on the game surely.

Unless they're about to contact everyone who had played and lost when there were imperfect cards and offer them refunds then I don't see how they've got a leg to stand on.

True, they should pay up for this reason. I still question Ivey's morals though. It's pretty close to stealing.

Sorry could either of you explain a) who should get refunds and b) why should they get refunds?

Well, if the casinos argument is "the cards were marked therefore the game wasn't fair so we're not paying out" then surely they should also be refunding the losses of anyone who played in this "unfair game"?

Do you actually know the rules of Punto?

Only vaguely. Not a game I play.

well the rank of the card could be written on their backs in fluorescent green and the punter wouldn't be disadvantaged in any way.

Yeah, but if they're going to withhold winnings then it essentially means they're freerolling. Keep the money if they win, make money anyway if they don't.

ok so no contacting everyone for refunds then?

Getting back to Ivey - he allegedly with the help of his companion contrived to manipulate the orientation of favourable cards, so that he would be able to see if he was going to be dealt a favourable card.  If he was, he would increase his bet.

The allegation was not merely looking at the back of a marked card, it was "interference....with the process of gambling" and that is cheating and illegal.

Whether the casino deserves what they got or even if they were freerolling is another matter, but if the facts as set out are to be believed, Ivey doesn't deserve a penny.



 

[Boba Fett]

I still don't get it. If cards were marked surely its at least 1 deck that is marked and at best he could identify that 1 of the 52 marked cards are about to be dealt? And with the cards in the shoe he can only see the back of the top card when he bets. How is it possible to cheat?

[doubleup]

The theory:

The cards are assymetric in some way.  His companion persuades the dealer to rotate the nines and eights so the edge displaying the assymetric characteristic is at the bottom of the card.  The cards are stacked in an auto shuffler after the deck has been dealt so the orientation doesn't alter.  The assymetric characteristic can then be seen on the bottom edge of the card if it is a 9 or 8.  To know your first card is a 9 or 8 would be a huge advantage.  Even if you were only right 50% of the time it would still be an edge.

[Dino]

Due to a "superstition"  of Ivey the cards were apparently dealt before he placed a bet making the reading of the backs easier, and the manager was asked to leave the room because he was bad luck.

[outragous76]

Due to a "superstition"  of Ivey the cards were apparently dealt before he placed a bet making the reading of the backs easier, and the manager was asked to leave the room because he was bad luck.

more fool the casino for allowing any of these things to happen

They free rolled him - simple! Now pay the man his money

[relaedgc]

What's simple about it?

If someone went in to a shop and purchased 100 cans of lager but scanned a 99p pair of socks x100, does that mean it's acceptable because he 'got it through'?

It was won by deception. Granted, it's a 'Casino' but whether you like or dislike their business ethics, it's still legitimately protected by law.

[outragous76]

What's simple about it?

If someone went in to a shop and purchased 100 cans of lager but scanned a 99p pair of socks x100, does that mean it's acceptable because he 'got it through'?

It was won by deception. Granted, it's a 'Casino' but whether you like or dislike their business ethics, it's still legitimately protected by law.

The casino willfully disregarded their own rules and safety measures because the guy was going to be paying for their xmas party by gambling with millions of pounds! More fool them!

[relaedgc]

Yes.

He openly cheated, but the Casino should pay out to a cheat because they humoured a high profile poker player with 'superstitions' i- n no way infringing upon the security or fairness of the game - but for the fact that unbeknownst to them they had a stock of decks fraught with minor print errors. To the unfair benefit of the player.

Given the fact that Ms Sun is a known cheat and is barred from a number of US establishments also somewhat implies that it was calculated, and irrespective of the fact that they pandered to his whims, it's still cheating.

Just like murder is still murder, regardless of who what why where and when.

[outragous76]

Yes.

He openly cheated, but the Casino should pay out to a cheat because they humoured a high profile poker player with 'superstitions' i- n no way infringing upon the security or fairness of the game - but for the fact that unbeknownst to them they had a stock of decks fraught with minor print errors. To the unfair benefit of the player.

Given the fact that Ms Sun is a known cheat and is barred from a number of US establishments also somewhat implies that it was calculated, and irrespective of the fact that they pandered to his whims, it's still cheating.

Just like murder is still murder, regardless of who what why where and when.

pretty brave statement in open forum

There seems to been many things in PI favour here - could it also be that  he got lucky?

How are they even going to prove that the deck used on the night is the one they produce in court? As soon as ivey left the table they lose that arguement id imagine

[Skippy]

How has he cheated? If it's as reported, he's not marked the deck himself. He's played the game as it was presented to him, and he's encouraged the casino to modify the game which they were happy to do. It's turned into a +EV game for Ivey and now it's all boo hoo, so unfair.

If on the other hand he's bribed the dealer to change the rules or rotate cards or anything else, then fair enough, go to jail.