Pass Me The Puke Bucket

[jjandellis]

Background

Hand played tonight in Live casino.  Near start of evening game was just 1/1 NLH, but several of us broke from table to play 1/1 ROE.

Classifying villain is a little difficult. No previous history, but in 90 mins of NLH he didn't seem spazzy - although made one strange ss limp shove on my btn sqeeze and got there with a9 v aj. He hasn't been massively out of line at PLO, has won some good pots - but also made one or two strange calls to get there.  He isn't a casino reg, but attire and bearing suggests he may be a pub/club player. Perhaps he dabbles a little online.

I was a little aggro earlier in NLH when in position, but since then on ROE I have been very disciplined.  I have played my hands hard and fast, been rewarded and am table bigstack.  He may view me as TAG more than LAG.  No previous history other than tonight.

Player on Btn is a PLO player, but has some good NLH moves and is not afraid to mix it.  BB is super nit. (For Gouty this is Haq and Wally lol)

Villain has £321, I cover with £525.

The Hand

Villain raises UTG to £4
Hero in MP with Black Kings raise to £13
Btn Calls
BB Calls

Villain 4bets to £34

Hero 5bets to £55

Btn and BB both Fold

Villain 6bet shoves £321

I fold

Question

1. Do you prefer to see a flop and flat IP his 4bet?

2. Thoughts on my clickback?

3. Can u EVER not fold?

I think its a clear fold, but my reason for posting this is my decision to 5b.

My reasoning for clicking back was that when he 4 bet the hackles went up, as I'm not expecting him to 4bet anything other than aa/kk/qq/ak (and probably not even ak). I'd love to flat IP, but am wary of facing a flop stuck inbetween potential aces and an experienced player (that has the ability to make moves).

So I want to kick the 2 old boys out of the pot, but at the same time retain some sort of pot control and/or try and get AA out in the open.  I think betting chunky leaves me in a tough spot if he does shove - or if he decides to see a flop and it comes <J high.

Another concern is, does he understand the clickback or does he just see weakness and think 'I got QQ/AK - AVE IT!!!!'

[dreenie]

Can flat for deception & position advantage

Don't mind the 4bet click back if u have a plan before u do it.

Not folding this hand the way it's played, and from what u have said about him in the notes. Wouldn't be making a habit of folding kings pre flop in general, but obviously can be done with specific reads on opponent.

[dakky]

Can flat for deception & position advantage

Don't mind the 4bet click back if u have a plan before u do it.

Not folding this hand the way it's played, and from what u have said about him in the notes. Wouldn't be making a habit of folding kings pre flop in general, but obviously can be done with specific reads on opponent.

Is this full ring? You have 3b his UTG open - looks strong in a vacuum

did u really 5-bet for info? Did you 5-bet to induce the spazz and then fold?

Do you believe his range to now be [AA] only? Is he ever spacking it in with AK?

I've folded KK pre like 3 times I think and been wrong at least once.

From a pure maths standpoint:

I think it's like £266 to win (55 + 13 + 13 + 1 + 1 + 266) £309 = ~50% equity required I believe

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

  35,958,384  games     0.000 secs     7,191,676,800  games/sec

Board:
Dead:  

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    57.191%     54.62%    02.57%          19640560       924261.00   { KcKd }
Hand 1:    42.809%     40.24%    02.57%          14469302       924261.00   { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

Being generous with QQ there...



   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    47.293%     43.79%    03.51%          11246602       900381.00   { KcKd }
Hand 1:    52.707%     49.20%    03.51%          12637196       900381.00   { KK+, AKs, AKo }


Do you think "pub"player more likely to click/something than pile  because he know pile looks weaker than strong? IDK

Prob flat pre if you plan to fold to jam; no need to strengthen your perceived range with this sizing? Like he is folding never to your click.

It REALLY depends on  your history and how he views your range here imo

[celtic]

Pokerstove it all you want, I cant see how this is a fold?

[MC]

Pokerstove it all you want, I cant see how this is a fold?

Yeah, pokerstove is completely irrelevant. This is only a fold if you think your opponent has Aces ~always (perhaps allowing for the other combo of KK)

[aaron1867]

I'm getting it in. 2 callers for £14 too, changes it, would imagine one has Ax at least what's background on the limpers?

[wazz]

I think this is an awful fold, sorry. You've mentioned earlier that he's stacked off (albeit while short) with A9; the mindset fish usually get in, when they have a big pair, is that they want to get all the money in preflop no matter what happens. They may view you clickback as weak; more likely he's looking at QQ and not thinking about what you've got, or even looking at TT thinking to himself 'I think he's got AK because of [insert magical read here]'.

I believe it was Barry Greenstein who said that you've got to be extra sure when folding KK preflop because you're still going to draw out on your opponent 20% of the time anyway. This is the sort of spot where it can often be a HUGE mistake to fold and rarely a big mistake to call. You need much better reads than what you've provided, or really any reads at all that lend to a fold.

[SuuPRlim]

5bet folding is a disaster.

Just flat the 4bet, and play the hand down the streets, you're 300bb deep and IP. 5betting because you think he calls everything worse and jams just AA is very ambitious and there is no way you can know that's what he's up to.

[pleno1]

Yeh really don't like this.

Sizing are too small in all the spots.

This deep they won't fold To 3bets so we should make it as big as possible both for immediate value and for setting the pot size bigger so we can get more value post flop.

[dakky]

Comeon just make it like £88 pre and call a jam/

My posting the stove numbers was purely for a starting point obv!

[Rexas]

As a live kid, I absolutely hate clickbacks. I very rarely see a situation where folding KK pre is good, but clicking back pre in a live cash game, especially at 1/1, is (IMO) not advisable. You lose value big time for any good hands you have, and can put yourself in very tough spots by allowing the villain a lot of manoeuvrability in the hand. If he's willing to call a clickback, he is willing to call more, and I have absolutely no problem getting it in with KK in this spot. I am, in fact, looking to get it in, and if the guy flats, then I would look to be able to get it in on the flop. SO....

I make it 15, villain then makes it what, like 36. We then make it 112 or so, leaving the villain with a pot sized bet behind, enabling us to get it in there and then should he decide to shove, or get it in on the flop if he decides to flat. If he has AA, then he has AA, and as Wazz says, we still win a little less than 20% of the time. He has enough worse hands in his range aside from the 6 possible combinations of AA that this is a profitable play. Based on this scenario, assuming he flats, I...

Fold board 1, and get it in on the other 3. As played, I...

1) Fold
2) Don't mind getting it in, but don't really like it, this is a very BLEURGH board. This is one of those spots where I base my decision a lot more on live reads and instinct than anything else.
3) IMALLIN
4) IMALLIN

Just my opinion, please don't hate me for it

[aaron1867]

Your 4b should have been bigger, although already mentioned

[PeeJay]

Get Tom High itt.

[SuuPRlim]

The rangees you've given for flating the 4bet and the %'s are totally irrelevant because this are ALL-IN equities. You're playing a deepstacked pot IP even if he has AA its very rare he's going to be able to value bet 3 times against you OOP

[SuuPRlim]

I think you got a lil stuck in the tournament mindset, deep stacked cash games are much more subtle, speshly pre-flop