Stack merging

[david3103]

Good for the game or bad?

The likelihood of merged stacks in tournaments playing a traditional format is far greater than in those playing down to 10% and we've already seen players starting Day 2 with stacks that would be impossible to achieve other than through a merge which makes the issue worthy of further debate IMO.

When this idea was first mooted in Rob's blog a year back my initial reaction was that it favoured those with deeper pockets. Deep down I still have a sense that as someone with a limited bankroll for poker I am being disadvantaged by this innovation. I'm also feeling disadvantaged by the 130 or so miles between my home and DTD which limits my Day 1 opportunities. From conversations with others at my own local games I know I'm not alone in this.

Lots of people attempting to merge and failing to do so may increase the prize pool which is good. Conversely, lots of people attempting to merge and failing to do so may reduce the overlay, which is bad (for players in that specific tournament, although good for the long term future of DTD and thus ultimately good for everyone)
I appreciate that for an operator, having unused satellite tokens being banked for future use, or cashed in, isn't good. Especially when satellites have been generous in their guarantees with the aim of building the field in a specific event. Allowing merged stacks obviously avoids this problem.



Views?

[TightEnd]

One of the whole points of the multiple online day ones that DTD offer is so that players who live a distance away can make day 2, and stack merge attempt if they wish, without being disadvantaged relative to local players and saving a lot of exes.

[YEAHMAN123]

Was good to you at Dtd at the weekend David,
It's pros and cons I guess
I don't wana sound like pure moaning when I post my view more take it as constructive post speaking my mind.
I think the stack merging is a bad idea overall, it does give a unfair advantage to people with deep pockets. Now I've heard the 'if the guy wants to spend x amount on a comp then it's up to him' but in the mini deepstack for example. Mark makes it through with 80k it's his first big comp buyin above £50, he sits down on day2 and there's for example again 3x stacks that have 350k plus from merging stacks and from the word go aggro pressure is put on his stack. I'd personally not enjoy the game and it would put me right off. This comp should of been for recreational players but insted (and this has even included myself lol) has become a gamble fest for most locals throwing £200+ at this comp.
Because the buyin is a good price people feel it's ok to keep tryin, I've felt the same at times. For the 300 fewer players will attempt to merge stacks so as Simon has stated before and I agree you won't see many do this at all.

I think the gran Prix will be a interesting test of stack merging where theres so many day1s and alot of players already with 5+ golden chips so our we going to get 1million plus stacks? Suddenly it's not recreational at all. me personally it's less about what gtd is being offered and more about layout and a comp that will appeal to all. I didn't see any problems with gran Prixs before, why change something that isn't broke maybe a few little tweeks like not being able to cash golden chips is fine.
I hope it don't go to crazy with stacks lol

In a nutshell im against the idea not sayin i dont do it but would be happy if it wasnt in place.would like someone to post who agrees with it and the reasons why?

[YEAHMAN123]

sorry for my grammar and missing words, posted on my phone and its being a bi*ch!

[redsimon]

If it boosts the prize pools or helps meet these big Gtees DTD put up I'm all for letting people have several goes. Mathmatically (paging Tomson87!) Im pretty sure its -EV to try and stack merge once you're through, but majority of poker players make -EV decisions all the time so I'm not going to discourage it

[claypole]

Be good to see some stats on what actually happens...I played one in Melbourne that had three day ones and from memory (I know Rupert can clarify as sure Melanie had a side bet), only 6 stacks had two stacks at end of day two and none merged three stacks.  That was a wsop 3k starting stack structure.  They love them in Oz, have a few at the Crown and are very popular - called accumulators.  Whilst I wouldnr want them to become the "norm", think its a pretty good innovation to boost pools

[YEAHMAN123]

If it boosts the prize pools or helps meet these big Gtees DTD put up I'm all for letting people have several goes. Mathmatically (paging Tomson87!) Im pretty sure its -EV to try and stack merge once you're through, but majority of poker players make -EV decisions all the time so I'm not going to discourage it

agree simon, it no doubt boosts the prizepool or help them get closer to gtd which i agree is good, just wonder if it puts people off, i havent spoke to anyone who refuses to play because of it but there kinda unsure of where they stand , grand prix will be interesting

tomo will come on here and no doubt lay down some sick maths stat now u mentioned his name lol

[Pawprint]

Although it initially may have been suggested that the stack merging and online Day 1's would be of benefit to players travelling a distance away, I think they are actually of more benefit to the local players to the venue.

The travelling player tends to play out the end of the Day 1 with a 'playable stack' in mind to justify the travel and additional costs, whereas a more local player is going to be content with perhaps less of a stack as their additional costs to attend the Day 2 are minimal.  This makes for some crazy last levels with some player timebanking down and others getting very busy.

I know this happens at the end of a live Day 1 to a certain extent with players not wanting to return with a shortstack, but it seems magnified when playing online and the ability to merge stacks.

But saying that, I still think the history shows that stack merging doesn't happen that much, and when it does, it does not necessarily mean the player is at that much of an advantage.

[c4ught]

If it boosts the prize pools or helps meet these big Gtees DTD put up I'm all for letting people have several goes. Mathmatically (paging Tomson87!) Im pretty sure its -EV to try and stack merge once you're through, but majority of poker players make -EV decisions all the time so I'm not going to discourage it

+1

Rather have a £50 tournament and 50k Guarantee with merging stacks than a 20-25k without merging stacks.

Would prefer it didn't become standard practice but it won't stop me playing if it did.

[theprawnidentity]

(paging Tomson87!)

 

[redsimon]

(paging Tomson87!)

 

Maths whizz explain stack merging and EV for us noobs?

[david3103]

 

One of the whole points of the multiple online day ones that DTD offer is so that players who live a distance away can make day 2, and stack merge attempt if they wish, without being disadvantaged relative to local players and saving a lot of exes.

Online day ones are a good addition to the scene although as a rec I want to play bigger comps live not online.

For the rest, I get four online day ones this week, locals get what, eight?

But...
If stack merging is -EV then who's disadvantaged, locals or me?

[smurf]

Can't remember the exact figures but last weekend there were 126 day 2 starters and over 140 stacks gone through so 15-20 did merge stacks.

It is what it is - it doesn't bother me either way but I do agree those with deeper pockets get an advantage but isn't that the same as everything in life.

The Grand Prix is another thing altogether though - several have got multiple chips so we know there will be some massive stacks playing day two - your choice is try and do the same or (like me) have a few goes and take it from there, try to come from well behind.

[theprawnidentity]

Stack Merging

The long of short of the stack merging debate is that is doesn't really benefit anything other than the prizepool (and therefore the rest of the field).  All players are doing by merging stacks is putting a ton of money into the pot (as do they not receive another min cash).  So in the case of the £50 deepstack, a player attempting to merge stacks would buy in for another £50 (extra money for the prizepool) and then forfeit another £150 when he sacrifices his min cash upon completion of the merge (extra money for the prizepool).  Therefore the overall prizepool for other players is increased by £200.  I could write a whole essay on this subject and show how terrible it is ev-wise to attempt to merge stacks given these conditions (and I can go into details if that's really what people want), but rest assured that been able to merge stacks isn't benefitting the players with deeper pockets, its costing them money.

From a personal point of view, I see nothing wrong with allowing players to merge.  Poker isn't all about EV's and maximum profitability, it's also about enjoying youself and in some cases supporting the club.  In this case, offering the ability to merge stacks is enabling DTD to offer amazing guarantees and payout large sums of money for a modest investment.  Merging stacks are most certainly not your enemy, however.......

Re-Entry

The real culprit for you feeling short changed is this bad boy.  It is always going to be that case that allowing players to re-enter are going to provide more opportunities for the pro's to make day 2.  If you look at the WSOP Main Event and hypothetically make that into a reentry with 5 day 1's.  You have the capacity to end up with 5x Phil Iveys, 5x Big Dans and 5x any other big name sickos you care to name.  This will massively increase the ratio of pro's to recreational players as the pro's will be able to take 5x bullets vs a recreational 1 bullet.

This is a really extreme scenario and its certainly not what is going on at DTD.  Admittedly, you are going to get some of the better players taking 4 or 5 bullets thus increasing the ratio of better players.  But then consider the additional benefits of being able to offer a £50k prizepool for an investment of £60.  The tournaments run with this structure have attracted massive fields and therefore a ton of recreational players who are prepared to throw £60 at a chance to win £10k (or £115 at £20k).  At this level of buy in I would suggest that the amount of recreational players who come through the door to take a shot will far surpass all the 2/3/4/5 bullets taken by a handful of regulars.

Summary

I think DTD have got the structures and tournament set ups absolutely spot on for everyone involved.

I tried to keep this as simple as possible without going into detail, but anything doesn't make sense then feel free to come after me

[david3103]

thanks Tom.

as Ross said earlier in the thread it could make for an interesting  GP with some players having 8+ Golden Chips and thus playing 8+ Day Ones

on a side note, given.your comment about it, is re-entry into the same Day One a good idea?