extracting value

[pleno1]

if this guy has a 4b/fold range then surely 3b/5b/jam is miles and away the best play. If, as suggested by others his opening range is wide enough and he's gonna mae more stubborn calls but will have a magnum 4b range then 3bet/fold is prolly the best play right?

If neither assumption is correct (he will never 4b light and wont make too many stubborn calls) then this is when flatting starts to show more merit. I don't think there is anything wrong is flatting with the dominant reason being we would have no idea how to react to a 4bet, but obviously we will make more money if we can make an accurate assumption on his reaction to our 3bet and use an appropiate strategy.

i just think this is too much  "if" "if" "if" its one of those that we dont know exactly what he will do. If I did I wouldnt have posted the thread.

Its about trying to make an overall assumption and weighing up the different pros and cons.

The biggest con for me is that getting in 65bbs would really harm our stack vs a value 4b call range. Im not sure the chips we gain from him 4b folding, which we are not even certain he will do ever anyway compensate enough for that.

I think in a vacuum now that flatting pre and playing post flop, whilst sometimes getting in vs a 10bb weak range and a relatively weak 65bb reshove range has to be the best option, but im definitely happy if somebody comes and says different and proves me wrong.

[Honeybadger]

Flatting should be the default play. Adjust from there based on reads. It requires only a tentative read to choose 3bet/jam instead of flatting. 3bet/fold needs a very defined read though.

[SuuPRlim]

if this guy has a 4b/fold range then surely 3b/5b/jam is miles and away the best play. If, as suggested by others his opening range is wide enough and he's gonna mae more stubborn calls but will have a magnum 4b range then 3bet/fold is prolly the best play right?

If neither assumption is correct (he will never 4b light and wont make too many stubborn calls) then this is when flatting starts to show more merit. I don't think there is anything wrong is flatting with the dominant reason being we would have no idea how to react to a 4bet, but obviously we will make more money if we can make an accurate assumption on his reaction to our 3bet and use an appropiate strategy.

i just think this is too much  "if" "if" "if" its one of those that we dont know exactly what he will do. If I did I wouldnt have posted the thread.

Its about trying to make an overall assumption and weighing up the different pros and cons.

The biggest con for me is that getting in 65bbs would really harm our stack vs a value 4b call range. Im not sure the chips we gain from him 4b folding, which we are not even certain he will do ever anyway compensate enough for that.

I think in a vacuum now that flatting pre and playing post flop, whilst sometimes getting in vs a 10bb weak range and a relatively weak 65bb reshove range has to be the best option, but im definitely happy if somebody comes and says different and proves me wrong.

mmm. Yh I guess not worded all too well, basically I'm saying we should prolly flat because we don't know if they guy's 4b range is full of folds or super premium, I'm saying that flatting because we can't make an accurate assumption on his tendencies vs our 3bet is not (as has been suggested slightly) a bad thing, "proceed into the unknown with caution" as they say.

The first paragraph telling us what we already know, if he's gonna 4b/fold lots then 3b/5b, if he's gonna peel loads and only 3bet monster monsters then 3b/fold, and paragraph two saying if we can't answer those 2 questions then just flat.

lots of people saying lots of different stuff about the play on party, I have no idea so couldn't comment. Quite nitty site, UTG 10handed open... 3b/5b seems a touch worrying.

[Nit Tendencies]

Love just having a really polarised 3betting range in these spots, so I would always flat here.