Levelling the Playing field....more Online software debate

[pleno1]

its all about hourly i guess. you can play about with the maths.

if you play 100nl and play 1 table (250 hands per hour) and you win rate is 2bb/100 then you will make 5 dollars per hour.

If you play 100nl and play 4 tables (225 hands per hour) and you win at 1bb/100 then you will make 9 dollars an hour

[vegaslover]

Do people multi table zoom / speed games?

8 at a time

If that's really true I don't get it.

I mean you're either involved in a hand or moving on to a new hand anyway.

Waiting time between hands. Or lets say you bet on the flop on one table and a guy is tanking you have all of the others. Waiting in the bb. Or simply waiting on the button to potentially steal with any two cards but not twidlling your thumbs.

So do the extra hands you get make up for the inability to concentrate fully on one table?

There isn't a lot to concentrate on though Red. Zoom is sooo fluid with constant table changes that just playing one table doesn't increase your observations that much imo. Just playing hands and situations.

As pleno stated most of the waiting is either when you are BB or when you are waiting to see if all others fold so you can steal in position

[RED-DOG]

its all about hourly i guess. you can play about with the maths.

if you play 100nl and play 1 table (250 hands per hour) and you win rate is 2bb/100 then you will make 5 dollars per hour.

If you play 100nl and play 4 tables (225 hands per hour) and you win at 1bb/100 then you will make 9 dollars an hour

That makes sense.

Just out of curiosity, would you say that those win rates are poor, average, or about as good as it gets?

[pleno1]

if anybody can win in 2013 then its good I guess.

I suggested on another thread:

Basically it don't matter at all if your red line or blue line is bad as lo as your green line is positive. What's probably most Important is tryingto get a specific win rate.

Negative winrate - this would mean that you are a losing player and thus a problem
1bb winrate - winning in the games but probably significant problems and leaks that need identifying
3bb winrate - very good, probably one of the better regs in your game
5bb winrate - one of if not the best reg in your games
7bbwinrate - playing too low and negatively effecting your potential hourly

Sample sizes - 3000 hands is literally less,than a day of grinding. You could be break even for 2000 hands, 1bb winner for 2300, at 2500 3bb, at 2700 5bb winner and 7bb by the end of he session. This doesn't mean you were good, bad, terrible and amazing in the session it's just plain variance. Sample sizes of perhaps 200k,hands would,be good but 50k plus I could perhaps spot some glaring leaks.

[RED-DOG]

Do people multi table zoom / speed games?

8 at a time

If that's really true I don't get it.

I mean you're either involved in a hand or moving on to a new hand anyway.

Waiting time between hands. Or lets say you bet on the flop on one table and a guy is tanking you have all of the others. Waiting in the bb. Or simply waiting on the button to potentially steal with any two cards but not twidlling your thumbs.

So do the extra hands you get make up for the inability to concentrate fully on one table?

There isn't a lot to concentrate on though Red. Zoom is sooo fluid with constant table changes that just playing one table doesn't increase your observations that much imo. Just playing hands and situations.

As pleno stated most of the waiting is either when you are BB or when you are waiting to see if all others fold so you can steal in position

I understand. It just seems to me that when I play I'm either deciding what to do in a situation or moving on to the next hand.

Mind you, I can't fart and chew gum at the same time.

[Karabiner]

Do tracking software, HUDs etc. afford "pro"s a bigger edge online than re-entry on multipe days affords them in live events?

From my point of view a staked pro who is able to fire six bullets at a tourney in which I and many others are only prepared to fire one or possibly two has an enormous edge, especially when he almost certainly has considerably more ability than me and my ilk in the first place.

If this is true then what is the difference?

[RED-DOG]

Do tracking software, HUDs etc. afford "pro"s a bigger edge online than re-entry on multipe days affords them in live events?

From my point of view a staked pro who is able to fire six bullets at a tourney in which I and many others are only prepared to fire one or possibly two has an enormous edge, especially when he almost certainly has considerably more ability than me and my ilk in the first place.

If this is true then what is the difference?

Isn't that balanced out by the fact that the tournament offers you more value that it does him?

[david3103]

Do tracking software, HUDs etc. afford "pro"s a bigger edge online than re-entry on multipe days affords them in live events?

From my point of view a staked pro who is able to fire six bullets at a tourney in which I and many others are only prepared to fire one or possibly two has an enormous edge, especially when he almost certainly has considerably more ability than me and my ilk in the first place.

If this is true then what is the difference?

DimSum77 made this point about re-entry a while back in a thread about merging of stacks. His argument was that the re-entry option was much more disadvantageous for the recs than the merge option because effectively we had to beat the pro's more than once.
Re-entry appears to be here to stay though and strangely, despite accepting his argument is valid, I still feel less at ease with merged stacks than I do with re-entry.

As for HUDs, good luck with knowing my style based on the volume I play online.

[SuuPRlim]

If it has the argued minimal impact players like Dave have suggested, why is it important to keep them?

This argument is so frustrating to me, as no-one really listen/reads my posts cos they are too long lol but this isn't REALLY what I said.

1. HUDs/Tracker software is very useful IF i) you know how to use all of the stats ii) you have a significant sample of hand on someone. The existence of HUD's and tracking software impacts the casual recreational player, imo, very minimally.

If they were to be removed completely would that make a better enviroment for online poker? Yes absolutley. Would it solve the problems that are really affecting the recreational player pool at the moment, imo, NO

The main result of a ban of tracking software right now would be un-noticable for the casual players, and the "good" regular players who stick the rules will get fucked by the slimy pro's if they find a way round this ban. This is my main concern with a ban on tracking software

2. Seems like there is a bit of hysteria about banning these HUDs right now because people have it in their heads you gain some Zen-Like advantage from having one, so I'm well up for them being banned as it will be conforting news to the casual players but it's (imo ofc) NOT going to solve the immediate problems.

3. Rob's scheme with the real name display is the beginning of a change that WILL be very positive for online poker and is directly targetting the main problems, the scummy behavior that exists is a lot easier to commit behind the annominity of an online screen name, none of that will go on in Rob's cash games online because you know who the person is, and he will take action against anyone damaging the spirit of the game (he's proven this) Yes, banning HUDs/TS fits in nicely with the ethos of these changes and I am all for it I just don't believe its any where near a solution on it's own.

PUNISH THE GUYS WHO RUIN ONLINE POKER WITH THEIR BEHAVIOR, AND YOU NATURALLY REWARD THE GUYS WHO SUPPORT THE GAMES POSITIVELY
That's how we'll save online poker. HUDs and tracking software are in the grand scheme pretty irrelevant.

[RED-DOG]

tl;dr

[pleno1]

tl;dr

mod of the year, shoe in for the advent calendar.

[RED-DOG]

tl;dr

mod of the year, shoe in for the advent calendar.

Sense of humour bypass still holding up I see Patrick.

[RED-DOG]

Or should I call you member of the year? (modern definition)

[SuuPRlim]

Do tracking software, HUDs etc. afford "pro"s a bigger edge online than re-entry on multipe days affords them in live events?

From my point of view a staked pro who is able to fire six bullets at a tourney in which I and many others are only prepared to fire one or possibly two has an enormous edge, especially when he almost certainly has considerably more ability than me and my ilk in the first place.

If this is true then what is the difference?

Impossible question to answer really as they are so very different. I guess the difference is that in re-entry its easy to profit from that, if you've been busted from a comp in level 3 and expect to still make money buying in again at level 4 then walk to the cash desk, hand your money over and you have snap made money.

You don't just buy the tracking software and instantly profit from it, you have to set it up and learn how to use it etc and even once you've learnt how to use it there is loads of ways to mis-use or be mis-informed by it.

[youthnkzR]

tl;dr

lol.

Great post dave, especially the 1st point - which is what a lot of people fail to understand.