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Poker Hand Analysis
AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
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Topic: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent. (Read 7447 times)
pleno1
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Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #15 on:
November 12, 2013, 03:07:37 AM »
Agree jam is good but can you reason why 225 is better than75? I think he bluff jams basically 0% vs 225 but definitely a non zero % vs 75. He may just literally flick it in joke wide with 75 too.
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Quote from: TightEnd on December 16, 2013, 12:59:59 AM
Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
SuuPRlim
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Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #16 on:
November 12, 2013, 03:18:29 AM »
Quote from: dreenie on November 12, 2013, 02:43:41 AM
Cos he has 850 behind the guy bets 350 or near enough, so u get value from all hands you can beat if he calls, and there is way more that you beat than you don't. What do u think he has ? are you folding to a shove on this same river card? If not then why not jam turn?. The board texture gives the villain loads of combo draws, so the 4 is a great card for us imo. Pay to see the river no?
And if you think you are beat (i.e u think he's flopped a set then you would not be calling 350£ to hit 2 outs).
I think Dreenie we've decided (quite rightly so imo) that in this instance our Ace's are bluff catchers to his flop action, basically we're 240big blinds deep and been c/r on T64dd, now obviously he has a gd deal of semi-bluffs
/
/
/
/
/
and so on but the actual range of value hands he is representing here is ahead of AA T6s/64s/TT/66/44 (thin i know but he's repping them all perfectly well) so we're bluff-catching with our AA OTF.
The turn is a gd card for us in the sense that a) we now beat T6, b) there is only 1 combo of 64suited left for him to have, and 3) it isn't a card that completes any of the g/shots or the FD he might have been semi-bluffing with.
However it's not a card that strengthens out range - it doesn't particularly weaken it, it's basically just a brick, his semi-bluffs have now lost some equity, T6 is losing, but
Xd which is a very plausible semi=bluffing hand from him OTF has now gotten there, so given that we had what we decided was a bluff-catcher OTF there really is no good reason to start value-shoving our bluff catcher on a brick turn - admittedly we would fold out all the g/s+f/d hands and protect our equity that way, but when the money goes in we're going to have 1-2 outs the vast majority of the time I'm afraid.
I think it's easy to forget that if we are going to raise hands for value in deep-stacked pots we need 1 of ttwo things to be true;
1) we either have right the top of our value range, to the extent that people will think we could be raising worse hands for value and commit chips with hands that are ahead of some of the hands we'd be value-betting with (basically kinda coolering them lol) or
2) We can very legitimately represent "air" and have bluffs in our range, and tempting people into hero calls with weaker hands.
I think this is OTT, one of those "everything worse folds, everything better calls" kinda spots.
Obviously as soon as some sort of dynamic and history starts to emerge one way or another then more creative value lines start to become more appealing, but in hands where nothign like that exists just playing it straight and not getting way out of line of levely is often the best way to go.
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SuuPRlim
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Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #17 on:
November 12, 2013, 03:24:24 AM »
Quote from: pleno1 on November 12, 2013, 03:07:37 AM
Agree jam is good but can you reason why 225 is better than75? I think he bluff jams basically 0% vs 225 but definitely a non zero % vs 75. He may just literally flick it in joke wide with 75 too.
I think he bluff jams 0% vs £75 and £225, I think we can potentially induce a frustrated call from something (IDK what exactly ) given i don't think he'll bluff jam I think betting to call at all is a mistake, but then I think checking back is best actually really going off betting the river at all.
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dreenie
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Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #18 on:
November 12, 2013, 03:25:03 AM »
So if u are, very early on in the hand, using your aces as a bluff catcher then u literally don't have a question as it would be clear check back on river ?
And I asked before to pleno, are u folding the same river card if he shoves and why?
Thanks for replying Dave.
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dreenie
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Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #19 on:
November 12, 2013, 03:28:56 AM »
Quote from: pleno1 on November 12, 2013, 01:53:38 AM
why would we jam turn? hes either got a fd or us beat or will most likely fold a hand that thought ti was betting for value like AT
And why do u never reply when I ask you a question? Why does it seem
That every time I ask questions or get opinions I get shot down and never
Given an opinion as to why u think I'm wrong in a more detailed version. Not just you Patrick lots of posters on here. I have posted many times and just get ignored, I'm not a stranger or is it that I'm just shit in my thinking approach in your s and most others opinions ?
Think it's really rude.
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SuuPRlim
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Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #20 on:
November 12, 2013, 03:30:41 AM »
If he shoves the river it's entirely different, because he CAN be bluffing (lots of flopped semi-bluffs have missed) and we have a very gd bluff-catcher (we lose to none of his bluffs) so that decision is completely different to any decision we have on the turn or on the river when he checks.
Also, once he checks the river he is no longer repping the same range of value hands as he was OTF (he can still have them, but a lot less likely) so we can now decide that we can use this hand (AA) which is defo the top of our bluff-catching range to value-bet with. (merging our ranges, for the cool kids
)
Jsut because on the previous streets we were bluff-catching with it doesn't mean we have to stick to it and cant value-net with it later when the action changes.
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pleno1
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Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #21 on:
November 12, 2013, 03:52:13 AM »
Hey
Sorry I typed a reply out then because of the abuse I get over borderline replies I decided not to post. It was nothing rude or offensive but was out with friends and 1- phone would make zillion spelling mistakes and 2- obv didnt have the time to write more than a few lines and the policemen out there like to jump on some small posts.
Quote from: dreenie on November 12, 2013, 03:25:03 AM
So if u are, very early on in the hand, using your aces as a bluff catcher then u literally don't have a question as it would be clear check back on river ?
And I asked before to pleno, are u folding the same river card if he shoves and why?
Thanks for replying Dave.
Just because you have a bluff catcher at one point in the hand doesnt mean things dont change throughout the streets. Poker is all about making logical decisions and through each decision your opponent makes decifing the information and then understanding their range better.
Ie, 120bbs deep, we raise button, big blind defends - flop is t42fd, we bet, he raises 3x, t7s and AA are both basically the same hand in the way we will play them but not in the way that they are (aa is way stronger than t7, if villain improves ott aa can still be winning)
Anyway, villain then bets 1-5th pot on 3 turn, now its v v likely he raised a weak showdown hand like kt, so now even though we were bluff catching 1 street ago, we could no viably make a value raise because of the information we gained.
The logic I think you have there is flawed and is similar to when you (not you personally, people in general) lets say overcall a 3bet with 22 and the flop is 872 and it goes 4bet on the flop and people say "well what were you hoping for" sometimes you have to take the information you have and try and make the best decision.
This exact thing happened in main event, I overcalled a early position 3bet with 77, we went 4 ways and the original raiser form utg check raised me on qj7 and i folded and george2loose and a few others iirc were saying along the lines of "why play the hand if you fold when you flop a set" i used the information to narrow his range down to jj,qq very often (assumed hed fold qj pre and probably not raise flop as it hits my percevied range joke hard)
Quote from: dreenie on November 12, 2013, 02:43:41 AM
Cos he has 850 behind the guy bets 350 or near enough, so u get value from all hands you can beat if he calls, and there is way more that you beat than you don't. What do u think he has ? are you folding to a shove on this same river card? If not then why not jam turn?. The board texture gives the villain loads of combo draws, so the 4 is a great card for us imo. Pay to see the river no?
And if you think you are beat (i.e u think he's flopped a set then you would not be calling 350£ to hit 2 outs).
im not sure about the exact maths and dont have equilab open so cant comment exactly ott but we dont know that he will bet call his draws on a paired board where a- his hand could be dead b- a lot of his draws could be drawing extremely thin.
Anyway, if we do decide to just shove the turn with all hands that beat a range and call very weak hands that beat part of his range then villain will e able to explotiably 3 barrel us at any opportunity because our turn calling range will be ridicuously weak.
Quote from: dreenie on November 12, 2013, 03:28:56 AM
Quote from: pleno1 on November 12, 2013, 01:53:38 AM
why would we jam turn? hes either got a fd or us beat or will most likely fold a hand that thought ti was betting for value like AT
And why do u never reply when I ask you a question? Why does it seem
That every time I ask questions or get opinions I get shot down and never
Given an opinion as to why u think I'm wrong in a more detailed version.
Not just you Patrick
lots of posters on here. I have posted many times and just get ignored, I'm not a stranger or is it that I'm just shit in my thinking approach in your s and most others opinions ?
Think it's really rude.
I personally really really like you and think you have the heart of gold, but you seem way too emotional for me to try and tell you what Id really like to say a lot of the time, I think youd take it the wrong way and thats the last thing Id ever want because as I said I really do think you dont have a bad bone in your body.
For example with dave I disagree completely with him regarding river tendancies vs 75 and vs 200 bets otr and would be happy to debate really a lot about it, but I wouldnt want to get into a really deep discussion with you incase I hit a nerve that would be seen differently to how I meant it to come across (like this post maybe haha)
If youd like me to write to you in a PM and go into more detail then I will be happy to let it all out, but I personally wouldnt be happy to do it on a public forum with you.
Like I said I really think youre one of the good guys and when I wake up on a Monday morning and check the Sunday Million lobby theres not many other people Id rather see with a 6 figure result.
Quote from: SuuPRlim on November 12, 2013, 03:30:41 AM
If he shoves the river it's entirely different, because he CAN be bluffing (lots of flopped semi-bluffs have missed) and we have a very gd bluff-catcher (we lose to none of his bluffs) so that decision is completely different to any decision we have on the turn or on the river when he checks.
Also, once he checks the river he is no longer repping the same range of value hands as he was OTF (he can still have them, but a lot less likely) so we can now decide that we can use this hand (AA) which is defo the top of our bluff-catching range to value-bet with. (merging our ranges, for the cool kids
)
Jsut because on the previous streets we were bluff-catching with it doesn't mean we have to stick to it and cant value-net with it later when the action changes.
definitely disagree here, I think people will bluff raise more than 0% vs 75, maybe they wont jam but jsut do something uncontrollably silly like raising to 250 or something, I take this line a lot both online and live in very similar spots to this (at the top of my range but vs a narrow calling range) and it works v well, I also see the most ridiculous calls. Maybe 50 would be better IDK. Also think they will call way wider vs 75 than 250. Can start putting us on the 89s or whatever the straight draws are and flicking in the j highs!
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Quote from: TightEnd on December 16, 2013, 12:59:59 AM
Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
Nit Tendencies
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Is this some kind of hilarious practical joke?
Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #22 on:
November 12, 2013, 03:54:06 AM »
I've played loads with Andreas he is decent but on the tighter side in these spots. I would check the river and be pretty happy about it.
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Is this some kind of hilarious practical joke?
Nit Tendencies
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Is this some kind of hilarious practical joke?
Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #23 on:
November 12, 2013, 03:59:51 AM »
And can I just say, I think Pleno gets a lot of shit for whatever reason and that post is empathetic, honest and bang on the money.
I'm just going to spam link that post whenever anyone starts moaning about you Pleno haha.
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Is this some kind of hilarious practical joke?
SuuPRlim
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Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #24 on:
November 12, 2013, 04:02:46 AM »
Quote from: pleno1 on November 12, 2013, 03:52:13 AM
Quote from: SuuPRlim on November 12, 2013, 03:30:41 AM
If he shoves the river it's entirely different, because he CAN be bluffing (lots of flopped semi-bluffs have missed) and we have a very gd bluff-catcher (we lose to none of his bluffs) so that decision is completely different to any decision we have on the turn or on the river when he checks.
Also, once he checks the river he is no longer repping the same range of value hands as he was OTF (he can still have them, but a lot less likely) so we can now decide that we can use this hand (AA) which is defo the top of our bluff-catching range to value-bet with. (merging our ranges, for the cool kids
)
Jsut because on the previous streets we were bluff-catching with it doesn't mean we have to stick to it and cant value-net with it later when the action changes.
definitely disagree here, I think people will bluff raise more than 0% vs 75, maybe they wont jam but jsut do something uncontrollably silly like raising to 250 or something, I take this line a lot both online and live in very similar spots to this (at the top of my range but vs a narrow calling range) and it works v well, I also see the most ridiculous calls. Maybe 50 would be better IDK. Also think they will call way wider vs 75 than 250. Can start putting us on the 89s or whatever the straight draws are and flicking in the j highs!
Think you mis-quoted me here as I basically said the same as you before!
I think what you meant to quote was...
Quote from: SuuPRlim on November 12, 2013, 03:24:24 AM
Quote from: pleno1 on November 12, 2013, 03:07:37 AM
Agree jam is good but can you reason why 225 is better than75? I think he bluff jams basically 0% vs 225 but definitely a non zero % vs 75. He may just literally flick it in joke wide with 75 too.
I think he bluff jams 0% vs £75 and £225, I think we can potentially induce a frustrated call from something (IDK what exactly ) given i don't think he'll bluff jam I think betting to call at all is a mistake, but then I think checking back is best actually really going off betting the river at all.
I'm sure it works online plenty, weaker, spazzier players in a pressure cooker waiting to explode, bluff bluff give-up GRRRRR TINY BET HOW TILTING
I can win this pot yet!
This is, imo, entirely the wrong player to be doing this against, it's a pretty old-school live-pro move the tiny bet on the end and someone like Andreas who's very experienced at live poker will not be falling for it. Pretty obvious we can beat QT and we're prolly calling.
Agree everyone seems rapid to jump on the "Pleno's posts are rude bandwagon" yes there are plenty of "trivial folds" out there but as I've said a million times he puts lots of time into helping everyone on blonde and gets an insane amount of stick for it, people forget very quickly.
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dreenie
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Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #25 on:
November 12, 2013, 04:07:32 AM »
One thing u must learn about dreenie Patrick is I do not follow a
Crowd and certaintly have my own mind.
I would much prefer for u to come out and say "dreenie wtf r you on, blah da blah, but give me
Reasons like u have there so I can digest it in than be worried about what I might feel. At the end of the day I'm my own worst enemy, I know it and I really do try every day VERY hard to not go loop da loop. I respect
Ur game and like u as a person otherwise I would never ask u these sort of questions and
I want to learn otherwise I wouldn't join in the discussions but I am the 1st one to admit that I have been very lazy in trying to get better at poker this last year. Also I find it hard to explain & understand this terminology that is thrown around these days, and a lot of times I have struggled with the maths side. Paul fettercheek will tell u that one from
First hand experience. I used to sit on Skype till 5am while he tried to explain the maths side of a hand to me, sounds bad I know but I did use learn something.
Neil Ryder is a nit, he has explained and explained I do want to listen and want to learn more and become better, jaylee another one who has broken it down better for me to understand, Tim Chung too, maybe I
Should know all this, but I do struggle and defo missing something these last 12
Months and my afraid to say it. I want the criticism otherwise I would never know where I'm going wrong.
Thanks for your detailed reply sorry for calling u out
Dreenie x
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pleno1
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Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #26 on:
November 12, 2013, 04:07:50 AM »
hmmmm, betting also doesnt let him find out about how we played our hand, can tilt him a little bit and he can potentially flick it in really wide. if he raises then wte call him, it looks like our range is bluffcatchers so he iwll bet his houses most of the time, but we can get called really wide.
its one of those things where one camp will prefer 1 sizing and another a different sizing, i dont think he will raise the flop bet with tx after we isod a 5 limper to 50 pre flop, even if it is standard sizing, if i thought he was that type of player then i prefer a slightly bigger bet.
but either way we will never get a sample size to justify my or your arguments, im sure youve used 250 successfully (and maybe unsuccessfully) and likewise ive used 75 both successfully and unsuccessfully.
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Quote from: TightEnd on December 16, 2013, 12:59:59 AM
Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
dreenie
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Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #27 on:
November 12, 2013, 04:16:32 AM »
And fwiw I do not jump on the 'its really rude' pleno posts, that was my natural feeling of how it panned out. If u go through all the posts/hands I've ever posted on here I get very few replys and know se hands are really interesting to discuss. Maybe it is what pleno says - ppl are afraid to say how they really feel cos I might go off on one, like I keep saying I do feel that I am very much Mis understood, u can have the same argument for me really -
Ppl like to put me in a section of a nutter just cos I've lost my temper in the past, it's like no one can change for the better ever.
And I did not say just him, most others too. I am grateful for his response and really rate his game. I ALWAYS listened to his YouTube Vegas videos cos I felt he was very interesting to listen to.
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pleno1
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Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #28 on:
November 12, 2013, 04:19:12 AM »
Quote from: dreenie on November 12, 2013, 04:07:32 AM
One thing u must learn about dreenie Patrick is I do not follow a
Crowd and certaintly have my own mind.
I would much prefer for u to come out and say "dreenie wtf r you on, blah da blah, but give me
Reasons like u have there so I can digest it in than be worried about what I might feel. At the end of the day I'm my own worst enemy, I know it and I really do try every day VERY hard to not go loop da loop. I respect
Ur game and like u as a person otherwise I would never ask u these sort of questions and
I want to learn otherwise I wouldn't join in the discussions but I am the 1st one to admit that I have been very lazy in trying to get better at poker this last year. Also I find it hard to explain & understand this terminology that is thrown around these days, and a lot of times I have struggled with the maths side. Paul fettercheek will tell u that one from
First hand experience. I used to sit on Skype till 5am while he tried to explain the maths side of a hand to me, sounds bad I know but I did use learn something.
Neil Ryder is a nit, he has explained and explained I do want to listen and want to learn more and become better, jaylee another one who has broken it down better for me to understand, Tim Chung too, maybe I
Should know all this, but I do struggle and defo missing something these last 12
Months and my afraid to say it. I want the criticism otherwise I would never know where I'm going wrong.
Thanks for your detailed reply sorry for calling u out
Dreenie x
My first question in my email was going to be how many videos have you watched in the last 12 months? Id assumed none, after your post maybe this isnt the case as you seem to be reaching out to people and itt.
What I would say though is these guys have all done the hard work to understand tendancies and then move on to the advanced stuff, theyve paid their education to nl100 live or nl25 online.
To really get to grips to the game you need to give up on this MTT high stakes crusade or pipedream. I have absolutely the same feelings and addiction to them as you do and Im sure most people on the forum do too! Whether that be a guy who loves the sunday storm every sunday, dave playing 5k plo wsop, Alex playing winamax or Tikay and his "next door this isnt advetisement ldo" crew.
It is fun to play mtts, you know it, you can win big at mtts, youve shown it but its not going to make you a better player. Winning a lot of money or 20,000 in an MTT may be a bad thing for you as sad as it sounds. What I think would be better is to start learning poker at nl25 zoom or a small stakes fast fold site. You can play lots of hands and whenever you are unsure there is a box called "review hand" when your session is finished you save all of these hands and when you realise that some are jsut std aa v kk etc you will be left with 3-4 hands that you can post here. Its exactly what John Black does and look how much support he has had?
Ive told you this before though, so has Scotty but you dont do it. Its totally 100% up to you, I am defintiely not saying go and play this or I think youre a bad person, Im just speaking from experience that it would be the best for your long term poker development.
Furthermore I think you just love getting into huge insane pre flop wars and maybe post flop wars with my dick is bigger than your dick mentality. You did a play and made a guy fold by 7betting 7 months ago Im sure. What was his name? What hand did you have? You may remember 1 or 2 in your lifetime but in the end of the day it means sweet fuck all.
If for the next 3 months you dedicated yourself to cash games and started learning theory (just like tim, neil etc did) by learning from questioning yourself and your opponents then you go from a cash game loser to a cash game crusher with a sexy graph Im sure you will look back in 2 years and remember this time and be PROUD, way prouder than double floating and c-shoving a river versus somebody when literally blowing up infront of your computer.
We have a skype group with blondes that are all beginners in cash games, I post there 3-5 times a day just helping with basic hand histories or v basic theory and advice, Im sure youd be welcome and you can feel free to bug me any time on skype if you have a hand history.
Remember a hand history is just a topic tree to further discussion I posted about it in my blog, but if I flag a hand about a turn decision and study it it may be the result telling me that I shouldnt do X on the turn because my river range will be Y this means that Ive studied basic river theory just from thinking about a hand and Im sure thats how Tim, Neil et al all climbed up the stakes rather than having somebody on skype telling them "Ok this is poker, river frequency must be 33% of turn 50% range vs a 72% btn steal 127bbs deep" its too detailed, complex and not what you need. To learn you need to play and playing live cash games or HSMTTs isnt the way to do it.
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Quote from: TightEnd on December 16, 2013, 12:59:59 AM
Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
pleno1
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Re: AA 5/5 NLHE game vs solid opponent.
«
Reply #29 on:
November 12, 2013, 04:22:36 AM »
my post was supposed to be that videos are supposed to be the best way to learn because you can stop and start them, ask yourself a question, watch and then go back 2 hours later when you think did he say x? hmm lets see again, its harder to do that with random skype chat, remember a coaching video is a structured seminar of learning, or it should be.
If you take up the above regarding small stakes cash games and stick to it then next year when the biggest poker bootcamp of the year is on Ill make sure you get a place for free (hopefully youre at 50 or 100nl) and be at a stage where you can really learn from some of the best coaches in the world.
Of course its absolutely up to you though.
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Quote from: TightEnd on December 16, 2013, 12:59:59 AM
Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
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