Do we need ANTES in DTD's £15 to £50 Evening Comps (30 min clocks or less)?

[robyong]

Hi

To get a comp finished in 1 evening or even one day, the clock needs to be 30 mins or less and levels need to be taken out of the normal festival structures.

Since playing these £15-£50 comps around the Genting Card Rooms posting antes in a 20 min clock comp just seemed unnecessary and time consuming to me, I asked players on my tables, and they agreed that 'its a right pain'.

I asked Toby Stone (TD of the EPT and UKIPT) and our very own Simon Trumper (TD of a crappy industrial unit in Nottingham) -"why don't we remove antes from 1 day (or 1 evening) comps, as there comps are all effectively turbos no matter what fancy name we give them."

Both are in agreement that antes are not  necessary in these format of comps - they are there for 'purist' reasons, in reality,  the quicker clock and levels missing already eat away quickly into players stacks and therefore force players to make action.


I am personally 100% behind taking antes out of all DTD's £15 to £50 evening and 1 day comps for the following reasons;

1. These DTD comps are mainly aimed at recreational players, £15-£50 buy-ins, we need the game as simple as possible at this level

2. Players will see more hands per round with no antes because of the time saved to collect/count and payout the antes, more hands has got to mean a better live experience

3. Antes are introduced to 'force action', which I understand in Deepstack 2-4 day comps with longer clocks and small steps in blind levels, but 1 day comps are 15-30 mins with loads of levels missing, 'action' is already being forced in this comps so putting extra pressure on players with antes worstens the experience especially for the beginner/novice

4. Antes don't effect the time the comp will finish, this is determined by the SB BB structure, if fact, eliminating antes will increase hands dealt so might speed up the comp in certain areas.

As always, your feedback is much appreciated

Cheers Rob
 

[Fshhhee]

 Perhaps remove antes for low buy ins but keep then for £50+ tournaments. Start antes after a couple more levels?

[TightEnd]

Pleae vote everyone - you have a chance to influence the competitions that many people play regularly at DTD..Over 600 individual entries for the Giant 25 and 50 pound comps this weekend, so I would imagine that's crystallised some thinking!

[RED-DOG]

Easy yes from me.

[Simon Galloway]

The best reason for having antes in relatively fast structures is to thin the numbers out quicker and keep some play to it.  Easy maths to illustrate, insert own numbers according to structure:  

No antes:
1 million chips in play, 20 players left with 50k average, blinds 3k/6k and you can't play a hand and not take it to showdown.

With antes:
1 million chips in play, 10 players left with 100k average, blinds 3k/6k and now you can actually raise/fold.

Collecting antes shouldn't take any time, altho I accept that it does.  I've seen players and dealers at fault for it, altho primarily players, it seems that putting in an ante chip each time is a tough gig to remember.

[pleno1]

Patrick Leonard keep them, people are supposed to play tight without antes, with antes they can play loose and it be correct. also if you want to feed these guys through to your big tournaments too then you dont want them to be "wtf is an ante" when they sit down and feel imtimidated and already have a sign on their back.

[celtic]

I vote for them to stay.

[millidonk]

I voted for them to stay.

[StuartHopkin]

I voted for them to stay.

[paulhouk03]

Antes in
But then again I never travel to Dtd for the daily tourneys

[robyong]

The best reason for having antes in relatively fast structures is to thin the numbers out quicker and keep some play to it.  Easy maths to illustrate, insert own numbers according to structure:  

No antes:
1 million chips in play, 20 players left with 50k average, blinds 3k/6k and you can't play a hand and not take it to showdown.

With antes:
1 million chips in play, 10 players left with 100k average, blinds 3k/6k and now you can actually raise/fold.

Collecting antes shouldn't take any time, altho I accept that it does.  I've seen players and dealers at fault for it, altho primarily players, it seems that putting in an ante chip each time is a tough gig to remember.

I understand what you are saying in theory, but in reality, comps at this level don't play like this, I have watched 1000's at DTD aswell as having played a lot myself recently. There is no adjustment for antes in players games late on, it's about the money bubble and final table, and players getting semi decent hands versus semi decent hands. In our £50 Grand Prix we have all of the WSOP levels, a 40 min clock, and it still plays down to 10BB average, where as our £300 Deepstack (the same structure and clock) rarely goes below 35BB's average.

In reality, having played and watched these comps, IMO Patrick's point is the only argument for keeping antes in these comps. We have timed play with / without antes and on average you would 10-15% more hands by removing antes, it's okay saying 'players and dealers should be quicker', but again, we have to look at reality, our trainee dealers start dealing on evening comps before moving to cash/festival events, and so our new/recreational player also start on the comps.

Again, understand the maths assuming players adjust optimally to antes, and play loose/tight accordingly, but that's just not the case.

Out of interest, do pub leagues etc use antes?

Cheers Rob

[nirvana]

Played a comp without antes recently - turgid affair near the last 2 tables - keep them please

[robyong]

Played a comp without antes recently - turgid affair near the last 2 tables - keep them please

Any more turgid that a normal evening comp though? every comp that I have played on the Genting Tour has gone down to 10BB average, sometimes 5BB during final WITH antes, isn't this just the case with a comp that starts at 8pm and needs to finish in 7-9 hours? Looks like opinion is split.

[T8MML]

FWIW we talked about this at length awhile back and the consensus was you need them but in short clock comps the big blind should pay the antes for all to keep the game flowing

[robyong]

FWIW we talked about this at length awhile back and the consensus was you need them but in short clock comps the big blind should pay the antes for all to keep the game flowing

I have heard that suggested in ante cash games before.

Why do you need antes in a comp with this common scenario though? Both Toby and Simon believe that antes are purely 'cosmetic' in these turbo formats and they spend their lives analysing structures etc. Lets say the clock is 20 mins, the average BB is 15, level is 2000-4000, next level is 3000-6000 (2500-5000 missing) - what is the benefit of everyone posting at 400 ante, there is a 50% jump in blinds coming............you gotta play!


Cheers Rob