PLO: Good flop...ish...

[SuuPRlim]

 Pretty tough spot here I felt on the flop.

GAME #5586525404: Omaha  PL £3/£6 2014-03-19 16:18:02
Table Ageyevo
Seat 1: Lil Dave (£1,750.65 in chips)
Seat 3: Tigerbeer7 (£600.00 in chips)
Seat 5: CValloe (£1.00 in chips)
Seat 6: BetorIWill (£861.45 in chips)
Seat 8: StowfordPress (£1,505.45 in chips) DEALER
Seat 10: Cadi11ac (£754.50 in chips)
Cadi11ac: Post SB £3.00
Lil Dave: Post BB £6.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lil Dave [       ]
Tigerbeer7: Raise (NF) £21.00
BetorIWill: Call £21.00
StowfordPress: Call £21.00
Cadi11ac: Fold
Lil Dave: Call £15.00
*** FLOP *** [     ]
Lil Dave:

Tigerbeer7 is a very boring, bumhuntery/nitty type REG, he's fairly active but he doesn't put decent monies in without a good hand hardly ever, BetorIWill is similar although defo a little splashier than Tiger, Stowford is vey loose, but isnt lunatic postflop and wasn't going crazy at this time.

I've flopped very well, however I'm really unsure on how to proceed from this point. Lead? Check/Call? Check/Raise? What do I do to heavy flop action etc.

What are everyone's thoughts?

[Rexas]

Bet fold? Our draw is ok, but not great and pretty easily dominated, and the same goes for our made hand imo. If these guys aren't generally getting ool post, I wouldn't expect to get raised by a hand that doesn't have us in pretty bad shape. By donking, we take control of the betting lead and have a little more control over the size of the pot with a hand that is pretty good, and could stand a showdown, but isn't one that we want to be committing stacks with. So I'd donk relatively small, and be happy continuing on most turn cards, and also be happy throwing our hand away if we get raised.

[wazz]

I lead about £75. Doubt we're getting any particularly light c-bets here and we want to get value from all the various straight draw/pair+ combos out there. Checking and calling then donking out blank turns doesn't feel very balanced to me whereas taking control of the hand now is fairly easy to balance imo.

[Tal]

The check-raise line is one I'm interested in, because, on the rare occasions I play PLO, I have discounted that for this sort of flop almost immediately. My reasoning is there is nowhere to go with two pair that continues to get paid (if it pairs up, aggression does kind of turn your hand face up) and the real value comes in getting a made big hand on the turn or river multiway, so we want customers.

This might be a perfect example of the sort of novice PLO player approach, whereby you check call all afternoon, miss everything and lose two buy ins without ever threatening to win anything.

I think I have two more medium sized bets to spend in this pot...I bet/call the flop and c/fold a useless turn. Or I'd c/c a useless turn if my flop bet were just called. I'd it goes multiway to the turn, we are looking for the queen of green or for one of the remaining his majesties to appear.

Can I even see the ballpark from where I am?

[SuuPRlim]

Bet fold? Our draw is ok, but not great and pretty easily dominated, and the same goes for our made hand imo. If these guys aren't generally getting ool post, I wouldn't expect to get raised by a hand that doesn't have us in pretty bad shape. By donking, we take control of the betting lead and have a little more control over the size of the pot with a hand that is pretty good, and could stand a showdown, but isn't one that we want to be committing stacks with. So I'd donk relatively small, and be happy continuing on most turn cards, and also be happy throwing our hand away if we get raised.

Very good post.

I lead about £75. Doubt we're getting any particularly light c-bets here and we want to get value from all the various straight draw/pair+ combos out there. Checking and calling then donking out blank turns doesn't feel very balanced to me whereas taking control of the hand now is fairly easy to balance imo.

Can't disagree with a word of this.

The check-raise line is one I'm interested in, because, on the rare occasions I play PLO, I have discounted that for this sort of flop almost immediately. My reasoning is there is nowhere to go with two pair that continues to get paid (if it pairs up, aggression does kind of turn your hand face up) and the real value comes in getting a made big hand on the turn or river multiway, so we want customers.

This might be a perfect example of the sort of novice PLO player approach, whereby you check call all afternoon, miss everything and lose two buy ins without ever threatening to win anything.

I think I have two more medium sized bets to spend in this pot...I bet/call the flop and c/fold a useless turn. Or I'd c/c a useless turn if my flop bet were just called. I'd it goes multiway to the turn, we are looking for the queen of green or for one of the remaining his majesties to appear.

Can I even see the ballpark from where I am?

 I think Tal you might be slightly over complicating it. We basically wanna get money in vs wider ranges (K7** / pair and SDs / wraps etc) and put less money in vs the stronger range, I.e we lead, tiger pots it.

I think this rules check raising out e cause when we check raise and get re raised OTF...we're now facing a realllly reqllllly strong range (just KK and JJ prolly)

I think budgeting for how many bets each hand warrants when all the info we have is preflop and what the flop cards are is a bad idea, cos it will reduce our flexibility when what we should be doing is gathering as much information as we can and proceeding from there.

[Pinchop73]

We block the vast majority of any gii value range, and we have blockers to a lot of the likely gii drawing range.

Think c/r gii otf seems best, very few value combo's and an awful lot of draw combo's out there.

Pluses: Lots of free money if we get a stab and a call.

Minuses: we may need to clear our throat to shout 'EIGHT! CLUBS!!!!'

I don't like bet folding, we may be leaving an awful lot of our boys out there when we actually have the majority of the equity.

Interesting hand

[SuuPRlim]

Tigerbeer has opened for POT UTG, if he bet/gets it in on this flop wont do we think his range looks like?

[mulhuzz]

Tigerbeer has opened for POT UTG, if he bet/gets it in on this flop wont do we think his range looks like?

i think it contains a lot of stuff that has you in not great shape.

i don't think it happens that often though. prolly hard for him to have 77 and obv blockers to KK/JJ and there could be some random K7/J7 in there (although not a lot obv).

Against his gii you're gonna see Aces plus a straight draw or a full wrap with bdfd etc as well as that stuff above.

I really think he's not raising a donk here with just a bare wrap. Prolly also has at least a decent bd too.

Think bet/fold v sensible line, also could make case for x-c-d (d for decide) but hand is not especially good mw and if tiger peels then someone else with a wrap gets all the options and that's nee fun.

I can't think of a hand where it'd make sense but I'd be happier x/c if our gutter was the best gutter available. Obv that might also have implications for the nuttiness of our bdfd as well.

[WotRTheChances]

Seems pretty rough to want to fold this flop at all (unless action gets insane). I wasn't really sure of the numbers, not being much of a PLO player, but tried to punch in some odds for all the big wraps/pair+wrap type stuff he can have and seems like you do better than i expected (53% at worst, 60+% at best, even vs a hands like QT89 or AKQT with bdfds.
Given the number of combos of wraps villain can have and the number of combos that actually have us crushed (just sets) seems like c/r getting it in vs 1 opp might be fine? Potentially lead and call a raise to c/jam brick turns or just keep leading.

[mulhuzz]

Seems pretty rough to want to fold this flop at all (unless action gets insane). I wasn't really sure of the numbers, not being much of a PLO player, but tried to punch in some odds for all the big wraps/pair+wrap type stuff he can have and seems like you do better than i expected (53% at worst, 60+% at best, even vs a hands like QT89 or AKQT with bdfds.
Given the number of combos of wraps villain can have and the number of combos that actually have us crushed (just sets) seems like c/r getting it in vs 1 opp might be fine? Potentially lead and call a raise to c/jam brick turns or just keep leading.

the worrying/troubling bit is how strong UTG potter's gii range is vs a guy who's c/r this relatively dry(ish) board with 3 others in hand.

question is really does he have enough of just the bare stuff? I don't think he does.

If we don't donk, tiger checks and someone else bets I think c/r gii is probably best though.

[Oxford_HRV]

i would probs bet pot then have no idea but if we had oesd going with it everytime obvs

Seems pretty rough to want to fold this flop at all (unless action gets insane). (53% at worst, 60+% at best, even vs a hands like QT89 or AKQT with bdfds.
Given the number of combos of wraps villain can have and the number of combos that actually have us crushed (just sets) seems like c/r getting it in vs 1 opp might be fine?

and what wazz said shows it is every reason to bet than anything else imo  .

Tigerbeer has opened for POT UTG, if he bet/gets it in on this flop wont do we think his range looks like?

only problem with donking is it forces you to flip chunks hu when you get potted(always fun though :'), i wouldnt imagine any fold equity from villains, and we arent exactly at the top of our range leading 4 way on such a drawy board which makes things much worse. and as stated earlier we would only be 60% at best and that would be V rare. theres 14 cards we need to protect against plus all diamonds and spades. and half of them will likely crush your equity. 



verry small range for tigerbeer i'd think nearly always a set, as a nit he knows he cant win this on the flop with one bet and its too drawy to lead worse than:

BDNFD+wraps, sets, top two+broadway and like v rarely double suited stuff like     



i think the decision is on betting or c/r teh flop but that depends entirely on how often someone after you would b/f mainly specifically a drawing hand



say you get a call or two after betting ~£75  for everything bricky on the turn what we doing people!? fist pump potting it? c/r?

[SuuPRlim]

Thanks for all the feedback guys, v interesting.

I like the fact that docking seems to be the resounding favourite option on the flop, docking this hand here makes a lot of sense, I actually think leading KK here is a good play too given how frequently it'll check through when we have 3/4 of the kings, and how 777 is prolly not going to stack off to a c/r unless its stowford who has it. Like Wazz says we take control of the pot, get value from 1 pair/strait draw hands which prolly won't bet and this hands going to be a hell of a lot less stressful on later streets if it doesn't check through and go 4way with a low spr for the turn and river.

I'm fairly confident that betting and doing anything but folding to Tigerbeer is very very bad, I think we just run into KKK everyday of the week, given he's potted UtG he prolly has good kings and therefore likely to share one of our gutters or block one of them. Vs BetorIWill, I didn't mention this in the OP as well as I should have done but I think he's very likely to have KkK or maybe JJJ when we raise calls AI vs our donk too, so I think betting to bet fold seems like the best vs those two. Mulhuzz made v gd point that this isn't the top of our range so folding to particularly tight ranges raising us isn't even that much of an exploitative move.

What to do if stowford was to raise the donk I have literally no idea, he is more loose passive than loose aggressive but he defo overvalues hands fairly often.

Check/call has a bit of merit as we keep the pot under control and we get to gain a bit more flop information without committing too much money, quite a nitty consideration but its defo with thinking about with 2 tight players and 1 very strong PF range in the pot and us being OOP.

Check raise, I worry about because whereas we're prolly ahead of anyone's range who cbets/stabs the flop, and might be doing fine vs the range that cbets/stabs and then calls our raise, but I'm fairly sure were decently crushed vs any player in the pots range who jams over the check raise. This leads to an option of c/r folding but at this point we've put a lot of money in with decent equity and folding could be a mistake.

So I'm now sold on betting to fold vs tiger and betor, and prolly against stowford as well (Lthough that is very undesirable) as the beat flop play, I agree the hand is easier to play this way (not that that should ever be e primary reasons for a move at the poker table) and is prolly the best way to get value from this hand. Ty everyone.

What I actually did was c/call a bet from BetorIWill, checked the turn and then checked an o/s 5 river. He had AKT5 with A high spades and checked back. I think the hand is fairly badly played from me overall.

[mulhuzz]

Think he's missed a clear value bet on river like.

You decide not to c/r, then check turn and river to him, he's rivered the effective nuts (don't think you're checking a set to him three times mw!) and he doesn't want to bet.

I think you prolly snap river too so wp on saving money

[SuuPRlim]

Sorry river was an 8

I should bet the river cos I can legitimately rep missed wraps etc

[mulhuzz]

Sorry river was an 8

I should bet the river cos I can legitimately rep missed wraps etc

Oh, right.

Think river defo a bet as well then.