FOBT's

[Kmac84]

Is that an acceptable abbreviation for those ghastly roulette Machines in the bookies?

I have heard rumours that there is going to be further legistlation coming into play with these bandits in the coming months.  My source who is involved in politics has heard this from someone pretty senior within the Lib Dems (take from that what you like) 

Got me thinking though, I thought these machines basically covered costs for high st books, what do they do now?  What sort of impact will this have on their shares?  Now might be a time to punt them even at a loss ifthe above is true. 

Are there any competitors online who will benefit from this move?  Might be worth trying to mop up a few shares in those companies. 

[bagel]

was just walking home, heard my name called and it was ex manager of local bookies. now a cabbie since paddypower took over his shop.

we had a chat about this exact thing.  he told me how he is so glad to be out of there due to spending all day watching people (some that he considered good friends) ruin their lives playing these machines. he said his shop , which is in a quietish high street (surbiton) took 35k a week. i knew they take a lot but that surprised me.

i think bookies are allowed max of 4 machines per shop. no problem lets open another one 3 doors up. 4 more machines.

we all make our own choices in life so its easy to say if you are mug enough to gamble what you cant afford then deal with it.however the people i see that sit on these parasitic games are in general not the same people that enjoy a tenner on the 1.40 at kempton. i know people that play these that NEVER  bet on sports.

point being, any legislation that is brought in is competely futile. time limits per customer lol. machine says you have played half hour so you must stop.ok, i promise not to play a different machine. set your limits before you play. right on jon.

only reason there are high streets with more bookies than any other trader, is these horrible machines that the government take there 20% from. anybody who thinks any new legislation concerning FOBTS is anything other than  a compete smokescreen that allows the cash to keep getting piled in to the industry must be mad.

[redarmi]

Not sure any legislation would be futile.  You could reduce the max stake, increase or change the duty further, use facial recognition to auto impose cooling off times etc.  I personally don't think any of these things should be done but they could be.

[Kmac84]

Not sure any legislation would be futile.  You could reduce the max stake, increase or change the duty further, use facial recognition to auto impose cooling off times etc.  I personally don't think any of these things should be done but they could be.

Max stake is what I have heard is being reduced to £20 a spin.  I think its upto £250 in some places most  I have seen in my area is a £100.  But its a massive reduction. 

I work in the city centre and the traffic I see at lunchtime in the local Joe's is alarming there is one guy who must do chunks every lunchtime - his blood pressure must increase 10 fold when in there as all he does is shout at the machine, claim its rigged (no shit) near smashes the glass.  The manager who I am pretty friendly with is targeted on getting people in playaing these machines and when the Area Manager is in he's salivating at the mouth over new punters punting roulette offerring them free tea, coffee, juice etc.  Yet I ca't get any more than £25 e/w on an early priced race and unlikely that you will get more than £50 a win on a BAGS meeting.

Like Bagel says I see numerous people who don't punt sports in playing these machines at all time of the day and I find it alarming.  Especially given that you can lose a £100 a minute.  People don't seem to understand that even although to start with Roulette is a game of chance it is also a puggy machine in disguise so your never going to beat it.   I might be well off here but I would much prefer my chances of punting roulette in a casino were there is more "randomisation" about where the ball lands.  Sometimes when the croupier gets lazy at the end of the shift you start to see patterns of where the ball is going ie within certain sections of the wheel - now while this is never guaranteed it creates a more favourable balance compared to the odds the house starts with and is certainly a better proposition than trying to beat a machine. 

Personally I used to play these machines a lot when they first came out and there were glitches with them were numbers followed certain sequencies but that all seems to have ironed out now and I don't think you can beat them.  I am 100% against the  B&M shops having them and the same can be said for Cartoon Racing.  I can't believe that you can get a £100 on a cartoon but ask for £100 on the 1:45 at Newmarket and your onto plums. 

[Tal]

Should bookies also be responsible and inform people wanting to have a bet on Man United to win at home that the price is too short because of money in from Asia, so they'd be losing money long term?

What about informing anyone backing a horse in the 1:45 at Newmarket at 20/1 in first time blinkers that doesn't stay and has had a late jockey change, so really has a 1% chance of winning at best? Should they still take bets?

Oh and Mrs Duckworth comes in with her pension money and wants to bet the lot on Turtle Dove in the 11:08 at Hove because they are her favourite birds and she bets anything with the initials TD. It's 4/1 but the bookies have a 120% book. Should they warn her?

It's all essentially probability, isn't it?

Facetiousness aside, I think it's important to put across the other side of the argument and remember that the odds of winning on a roulette terminal long term aren't very different from betting on the horses for the vast majority of people. Yes, there needs to be some level of responsibility on the patron's part to those who visit, just as a landlord of a pub should be able to say "Don't you think you've had enough, sir?"

For some people, gambling is a symptom of a much bigger problem, just as for others it is eating too much, self harm or sleeplessness. To make FOBTs or Bookies out to be the bad guys is simplistic, when there is a much wider concern about how people cope with stress and how society treats those with addictions.

It doesn't mean there shouldn't be limits on spending, so I'm not disagreeing with you or anyone else, but it's a difficult balance to reach between corporate responsibility and a free market.

[Cf]

It's highly unlikely FOBT betting limits will be changing any time soon. The last stakes and prizes review went through in January and this typically happens every three years. Bookies are allowed 4 machines max from cats B2-D. Typically you will see 4 B2 machines (FOBTs) which are max stake £100, max prize £500.

Now whilst I agree that no-one is forcing people to gamble I also think there should be protection in place. The latest thing is the screen pops up saying "You've been playing for 30 minutes. Do you want a break" or "You have played £100". This helps no-one and has been implemented purely to look like they're tackling the problem.

Games such as roulette I feel should be restricted to licensed casinos. It seems wrong to me that such games are available so readily on the high street.

There's also the fact that most bookies are to be found in poorer areas. Sometimes with the same bookie across the road to circumvent the 4 machines per shop limit.

But at the end of the day the government makes a fuckton in tax from it so until the time comes that sufficient pressure to get rid of them occurs don't expect anything to change soon.

[Cf]

Oh and to address Tal's point. Yes, of course placing a bet in a bookies is -EV. It has to be otherwise they would go out of business.

But there's only so much damage someone can do placing bets behind the counter.

The speed at which you can lose money on one of machines and how easy they make it to do it can be down right frightening.

[arbboy]

http://centrallobby.politicshome.com/latestnews/article-detail/newsarticle/a-cap-on-fobt-stakes-could-benefit-horse-racing/

If you read this i wouldn't be so sure about big changes coming to FOBT's much sooner than you think.  This independent report basically says everything the bookies say about them is bullshit and it would actually increase employment in the economy, rather than cost 40000 jobs, which is what the big 4 firms are spouting.  These firms are seriously under the cosh.  They are doing whatever it takes to keep these machines running.  Shop windows are plastered with gamble responsibly - knows your limits now.  Inside a coral shop today on a screen was the message 'enough is enough - save your local bookie' which was comical and obviously related to the FOBT's.  Redarmi said on hills shop radio commentary today they were asking shop punters to sign a petition to make sure FOBT's don't get banned.  You really can't make it up how desperate they are becoming.  They haven't cared about any of this for the past 13 years whilst they keep collecting mountains of cash.  The only reason they care now is because they know there is a very real chance the goose who lays the golden egg might be about to die.

[redarmi]

It's highly unlikely FOBT betting limits will be changing any time soon. The last stakes and prizes review went through in January and this typically happens every three years. Bookies are allowed 4 machines max from cats B2-D. Typically you will see 4 B2 machines (FOBTs) which are max stake £100, max prize £500.

Now whilst I agree that no-one is forcing people to gamble I also think there should be protection in place. The latest thing is the screen pops up saying "You've been playing for 30 minutes. Do you want a break" or "You have played £100". This helps no-one and has been implemented purely to look like they're tackling the problem.

Games such as roulette I feel should be restricted to licensed casinos. It seems wrong to me that such games are available so readily on the high street.

There's also the fact that most bookies are to be found in poorer areas. Sometimes with the same bookie across the road to circumvent the 4 machines per shop limit.

But at the end of the day the government makes a fuckton in tax from it so until the time comes that sufficient pressure to get rid of them occurs don't expect anything to change soon.

I don't really understand this point of view.  What difference does it make?  If anything casino's are worse than betting shops.  When was the last time you saw anything like the responsible gambling message that is so prevalent in bookmakers now in a casino.  Nobody ever asks you if you want to take a break from the blackjack table or roulette wheel in a casino.  I understand that the number of spins etc can present a problem but you are either going to let people gamble or you aren't.  At the end of the day pretty much all these things are random number generators.  There isn't actually any difference between turning over 10k on 100 spins of a FOBT and having the same bet on "hopeless harry" in the virtual racing at 25/1 yet nobody is suggesting they change that.  It is just an easy target for politicians to seem community spirited.  Does it ruin lives?  Yeah no doubt but then so does smoking, eating fast food and having ten pints down your local every other night.

[Cf]

It's highly unlikely FOBT betting limits will be changing any time soon. The last stakes and prizes review went through in January and this typically happens every three years. Bookies are allowed 4 machines max from cats B2-D. Typically you will see 4 B2 machines (FOBTs) which are max stake £100, max prize £500.

Now whilst I agree that no-one is forcing people to gamble I also think there should be protection in place. The latest thing is the screen pops up saying "You've been playing for 30 minutes. Do you want a break" or "You have played £100". This helps no-one and has been implemented purely to look like they're tackling the problem.

Games such as roulette I feel should be restricted to licensed casinos. It seems wrong to me that such games are available so readily on the high street.

There's also the fact that most bookies are to be found in poorer areas. Sometimes with the same bookie across the road to circumvent the 4 machines per shop limit.

But at the end of the day the government makes a fuckton in tax from it so until the time comes that sufficient pressure to get rid of them occurs don't expect anything to change soon.

I don't really understand this point of view.  What difference does it make?  If anything casino's are worse than betting shops.  When was the last time you saw anything like the responsible gambling message that is so prevalent in bookmakers now in a casino.  Nobody ever asks you if you want to take a break from the blackjack table or roulette wheel in a casino.  I understand that the number of spins etc can present a problem but you are either going to let people gamble or you aren't.  At the end of the day pretty much all these things are random number generators.  There isn't actually any difference between turning over 10k on 100 spins of a FOBT and having the same bet on "hopeless harry" in the virtual racing at 25/1 yet nobody is suggesting they change that.  It is just an easy target for politicians to seem community spirited.  Does it ruin lives?  Yeah no doubt but then so does smoking, eating fast food and having ten pints down your local every other night.

I'm not saying casinos are perfect but they present a few advantages:

- Less of them
- Visiting one might involve going out of your way or having it be a special occasion
- Self exclusion (You can self exclude from a bookies but it's so comically unenforced)
- As you touch upon less spins per minute
- Less chance of going to one with a spare tenner (You see this a lot. Punter walks in with not a great amount of money but that was presumably intended for something else. 5 minutes and a few punches of the machine later it's gone.)


On the community aspect there's also the point of walking down a high street these days you're going to see massive banners for the latest roulette or slot or cash match or whatever the bookies want to advertise. In some places it's pretty impossible to miss these. Add to that the fact every second advert on TV these days seems to be betting related and people's exposure to betting is going to be high.

[tikay]

There is a point being missed here. Never mind FOBT's, you surely all know that there are any number of Online Slots sites, & they do, collectively, a HUGE amount of business. (MUCH more than FOBT's). They are open for Business 24/7, & operate even faster than FOBT's.

So, if you kill all the FOBT's in High St Bookies, punters will simply switch to Online Slots. I don't know for sure, but I would have thought most Online Slots sites are owned by, or tied to, Online Sports Betting/Poker/Bingo sites. 

I don't really have a view either way on the whole matter, but discussing how we control FOBT's without including Online Slots in the debate is a bit futile, imo.

[horseplayer]

Agree with that

Cant quite see how the petition in shops will work out though.

"Hi Dave Sorry you have done a few hundred on the machine again for the 188th day running but before you go....."

[simonnatur]

I watched a homeless guy, barefoot and dressed in rags, begging for change before bringing it in to Fred Done's machines and leaving empty handed. Watching this pathetic spectacle repeat itself several times over the course of an hour made up my mind about FOBT's. Quite right that the responsible gambling messages are a joke and show how justifiably scared the bookmakers are of further restrictions.

[Omm]

It's highly unlikely FOBT betting limits will be changing any time soon. The last stakes and prizes review went through in January and this typically happens every three years. Bookies are allowed 4 machines max from cats B2-D. Typically you will see 4 B2 machines (FOBTs) which are max stake £100, max prize £500.

Now whilst I agree that no-one is forcing people to gamble I also think there should be protection in place. The latest thing is the screen pops up saying "You've been playing for 30 minutes. Do you want a break" or "You have played £100". This helps no-one and has been implemented purely to look like they're tackling the problem.

Games such as roulette I feel should be restricted to licensed casinos. It seems wrong to me that such games are available so readily on the high street.

There's also the fact that most bookies are to be found in poorer areas. Sometimes with the same bookie across the road to circumvent the 4 machines per shop limit.

But at the end of the day the government makes a fuckton in tax from it so until the time comes that sufficient pressure to get rid of them occurs don't expect anything to change soon.

I don't really understand this point of view.  What difference does it make?  If anything casino's are worse than betting shops.  When was the last time you saw anything like the responsible gambling message that is so prevalent in bookmakers now in a casino.  Nobody ever asks you if you want to take a break from the blackjack table or roulette wheel in a casino.  I understand that the number of spins etc can present a problem but you are either going to let people gamble or you aren't.  At the end of the day pretty much all these things are random number generators.  There isn't actually any difference between turning over 10k on 100 spins of a FOBT and having the same bet on "hopeless harry" in the virtual racing at 25/1 yet nobody is suggesting they change that.  It is just an easy target for politicians to seem community spirited.  Does it ruin lives?  Yeah no doubt but then so does smoking, eating fast food and having ten pints down your local every other night.

But FOBT's do it much quicker! Cigs probably cost £8+ a pack of 20 most smokers probably smoke 1-2 packs a day, maybe a tenner a day on fast food for fatties and a daily ten pint drinker is looking at £30-£50 quid . The same person doing all three in a day has just spent £70-£100 (if he buys his mates a drink) now add in a trip to the bookies and that same person could be down ten times as much within an hour or two (especially if the pubs next door).

I've had a spin of these machines and can see how someone without control can do their nuts. The only enjoyment that comes out of these is when you win, which unfortunately is the lucky few.

[tikay]

Apropros nothing really, but can you imagine Las Vegas without slot machines?

I believe there are just shy of 200,000 of them, & the casinos never close.