something a little different

[TL900]

Play quite a bit of 2-7 triple draw when im not grinding mtt's now think its a really fun game and people should def check it out.

For anyone who does play/has played before thoguhts on this spot please?

We are dealt  on the button.

Cutoff opens (v agg opener/player) we 3b he 4b's we cap it, we go heads up to the draw and he pulls one card.

Pat or discard the 9?

[pleno1]

.

[wazz]

Pat & play your position, make him pay to draw, if he caps then pats next draw you might consider breaking

[TL900]

Pat & play your position, make him pay to draw, if he caps then pats next draw you might consider breaking

would u break if positions were reversed?

[Rexas]

I used to play a fair bit of this, definitely one of my favourite games - I'm completely with Wazz here, and fwiw I would break if oop with this hand.

[Honeybadger]

It's close because if you break you are drawing rough. Replace the 6 with a 4 or a 3 and you have a very obvious break.

I'm more than a bit rusty on this game now, but with this exact hand I suspect it does not make too much difference whether you pat or draw.

[mulhuzz]

It's close because if you break you are drawing rough. Replace the 6 with a 4 or a 3 and you have a very obvious break.

I'm more than a bit rusty on this game now, but with this exact hand I suspect it does not make too much difference whether you pat or draw.

Yup agree

[Rexas]

The moral of the hand is - get more people playing 2-7!

[buffyslayer1]

Read this the other day and I am not sure I agree with the PAT its something I would never and likely very very bad actually. (Checked and talked to my old mentor and he confirms this)

Having always been basically taught (was ucky enough to have a HS triple draw teacher) to break when we have a smooth pre draw. We do have position whichis nice but, we are at to big of a equity disadvantage to PAT


Also disagree we are drawing rough as stated somewhere, maybe a confusion in terminology but I would consider drawing rough drawing to a 863 or a 87. Yes we are not drawing to the nuts but we are drawing to a 76532 or a 76532 both very strong hands (#3/4) and its smooth enough to draw to imo.

I ran a sim and if villain draws to the nuts then we are in a tough spot, we are significantly behind villain with 3 draws left plus we also have implied odds of making a 7 which we now ditched with villain making a worse hand like 86 or likely a 87 by the river

2-7 triple draw sim, 100000 trials, 3 draws:
Dead cards: none

Hand 0: : standing pat
Hand 1: --: 2nd draw: stand pat on 8, keep 56, str8s to break hi: none, 3rd draw: stand pat on 8, keep 56, str8s to break hi: none

Hand 0: 9:diamond: 7:spade: 6:heart: 5:diamond: 2:heart:: EV 40.1% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 40.1/59.9/0.0
Hand 1: 2:diamond: 3:club: 4:diamond: 7:club: --: EV 59.9% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 59.9/40.1/0.0


So we are just Pat with bad equity, also we are 65% to make a 9 again by the river anyway so if we break and draw we could end up making a 9 again and can PAT if we wish anyway with 2 draws to go we would now be a 60% fav against a 1CD and also ofc can make a much better hand with implied odds for the river

If we had a straight draw here then PAT would be good or if we had 95432 (draw underneath is a straight draw)


Sorry made a error here if villain actually also Pats or makes a 9 OTR say at some point we are in even worse shape  villain is actually 67% fav in that spot. Ofc this is only for this exact draw where his 9 will beat ours, for other draws the 1st equity if more correct at villain making a 9 is not relevant (though we are still behind)

2-7 triple draw sim, 100000 trials, 3 draws:
Dead cards: none

Hand 0: : standing pat
Hand 1: --: 2nd draw: stand pat on 9, keep 5689, str8s to break hi: none, 3rd draw: stand pat on 9, keep 5689, str8s to break hi: none

Hand 0: : EV 32.7% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 32.7/67.3/0.0
Hand 1: --: EV 67.3% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 67.3/32.7/0.0

This all assume villain is drawing smooth and the equities change a bit depending on what he actualy starts with, but in general given the action you would expect villain to be drawing to a good hand since he capped pre


Sorry for long post but in summary PAT is really very very bad, its not actually a close decision as to whether to break or PAT. We are way behind a decent 1CD and we have implied odds of hitting a better hand due to our smooth draw and picking up additional bets on the river/turn and we can even bluff river should we somehow miss.

[TL900]

interesting, thanks for that post

[buffyslayer1]

interesting, thanks for that post

No problem

Troutalator is a free 2-7 equity calculator which helps with spots like this, google it and shoudl be easy to find. Its tricky to work but if you want to play around with it PM me and I can treach you how to use it (would only take 10 mins or so)

[Honeybadger]

Great post buffy.

When I said we were drawing rough I meant that we were almost certainly drawing rougher than villain. Rough and smooth are relative terms. I always assumed that if we are pretty certain we are drawing worse than villain then we should be more inclined to pat.

You did the equities for patting, but not for drawing. Because it's not like we are going to be 50/50 if we both draw, so we need a comparison. Can you run the equities for when we draw vs the 7432 and let me know? Also, can you run the equities for if we had instead a smooth 8 draw (i.e. 8432) vs 7432 and let me know?

Also, can you compare our 97652 to villain's 8432 for me? Both if we break and if we pat.

Not sure that having villain pat a 9 is the right assumption to make btw (perhaps run the draw vs pat sims with both assumptions, but the draw vs draw assumptions with either player patting a 9 if the other draws?). But if he does pat a 9 we have better equity than the sim tells us because we would then break obviously.

In fact, this concept applies in all these spots - if we pat the 97652 then our equity is not as bad as the sim tells us since we will break if villain pats in front of us on any change.

[buffyslayer1]

Great post buffy.

When I said we were drawing rough I meant that we were almost certainly drawing rougher than villain. Rough and smooth are relative terms. I always assumed that if we are pretty certain we are drawing worse than villain then we should be more inclined to pat.

You did the equities for patting, but not for drawing. Because it's not like we are going to be 50/50 if we both draw, so we need a comparison. Can you run the equities for when we draw vs the 7432 and let me know? Also, can you run the equities for if we had instead a smooth 8 draw (i.e. 8432) vs 7432 and let me know?

Also, can you compare our 97652 to villain's 8432 for me? Both if we break and if we pat.

Not sure that having villain pat a 9 is the right assumption to make btw (perhaps run the draw vs pat sims with both assumptions, but the draw vs draw assumptions with either player patting a 9 if the other draws?). But if he does pat a 9 we have better equity than the sim tells us because we would then break obviously.

In fact, this concept applies in all these spots - if we pat the 97652 then our equity is not as bad as the sim tells us since we will break if villain pats in front of us on any change.

On the turn villain will likely PAT a 9 as if we are drawing he is way ahead of us. One nice thing about being IP is that we can raise for value here with decent holding (86 or better likey) or freeze him with say 87 and have him drawing dead. On the flop though he could well not PAT a 9 and draw to 8/7 again I agree so wil re-run for this.


In the draw versus draw spot, I would imagine villain will again PAT a 9 on the turn, if he draws though you are very correct in that actually we would PAT a J on the turn as we are a fav against a 1CD getting to a common 1-1 spot. Which makes it better for us not to PAT preflop anyway, since even if we dont make a better hand than a 9 (we are 65% to make better anyway), we are close to 80% to make a J anyway by the river and if he draws 1 with one draw to go we can PAT our J and win a showdown.


Bolded part, think the only issue with this is, first villain will likely ch/r when he makes a better hand on a later street then PAT of course. Now we have to put in a extra bet to call and break, 2nd our equity on drawing with less draws to go is greatly reduced.

Equities for when we both draw are below, I think they are slightly better on the whole (versus PAT) but again the major thing the raw equity cannot give you is that when we PAT we basically win the min where as if we draw and make a Big hand we get a lot of extra bets/value from freezing villain, or raising turn/river bets

Will run all the equities and post below

[buffyslayer1]

So as asked for this is equity of both drawing

here we have villain patting 8 on 2nd draw and a J on the 3rd draw (J is a big fav against a 1CD with one draw left)

2-7 triple draw sim, 100000 trials, 3 draws:
Dead cards: 9:diamond:

Hand 0: --: 2nd draw: stand pat on 9, keep 3489, str8s to break hi: none, 3rd draw: stand pat on J, keep 3489TJ, str8s to break hi: none
Hand 1: --: 2nd draw: stand pat on 8, keep 568, str8s to break hi: none, 3rd draw: stand pat on 9, keep 5689, str8s to break hi: none

Hand 0: 7:spade: 6:heart: 5:diamond: 2:heart: --: EV 42.1% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 42.1/57.9/0.0
Hand 1: 2:diamond: 3:club: 4:diamond: 7:club: --: EV 57.9% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 57.9/42.1/0.0


Compare to PAT with villain drawing to 8 on 2nd draw and Patting 9 on river

2-7 triple draw sim, 100000 trials, 3 draws:
Dead cards: none

Hand 0: : standing pat
Hand 1: --: 2nd draw: stand pat on 8, keep 568, str8s to break hi: none, 3rd draw: stand pat on 9, keep 5689, str8s to break hi: none

Hand 0: 9:diamond: 7:spade: 6:heart: 5:diamond: 2:heart:: EV 36.3% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 36.3/63.7/0.0
Hand 1: 2:diamond: 3:club: 4:diamond: 7:club: --: EV 63.7% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 63.7/36.3/0.0


Smooth 8 draw versus villains smooth 7 draw Assumes villain will PAT J on 3rd draw and so will Hero

2-7 triple draw sim, 100000 trials, 3 draws:
Dead cards: none

Hand 0: --: 2nd draw: stand pat on 8, keep 567, str8s to break hi: none, 3rd draw: stand pat on J, keep 5679TJ, str8s to break hi: none
Hand 1: --: 2nd draw: stand pat on 8, keep 568, str8s to break hi: none, 3rd draw: stand pat on J, keep 5689TJ, str8s to break hi: none

Hand 0: 8:diamond: 4:club: 3:spade: 2:heart: --: EV 41.6% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 40.5/57.4/2.1
Hand 1: 2:diamond: 3:club: 4:diamond: 7:club: --: EV 58.4% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 57.4/40.5/2.1

The main thing by the way that I prob mentioned like 10 times now is the added advantage of being IP here, as when villain draws on the 3rd draw we can play perfectly and PAT J or better, raise maybe make him break a J/T or freeze if we have better.

Versus Villain draw to smooth 8 if we PAT 9

2-7 triple draw sim, 100000 trials, 3 draws:
Dead cards: none

Hand 0: : standing pat
Hand 1: --: 2nd draw: stand pat on 8, keep 567, str8s to break hi: none, 3rd draw: stand pat on 8, keep 567, str8s to break hi: none

Hand 0: 9:diamond: 7:spade: 4:club: 3:spade: 2:heart:: EV 40.0% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 40.0/60.0/0.0
Hand 1: 8:diamond: 4:heart: 3:heart: 2:spade: --: EV 60.0% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 60.0/40.0/0.0

[buffyslayer1]

Should mention (if I didn't already) if this was after the 1st draw then its certainly a PAT as now we are 55-60% equity favourite and even if we have implied odds of making better hands (villains making worse) we are so far ahead of villains that PAT is the clear play

If you want any other sims run lmk