Road to being a pro

[tikay]

170 down. Had v on 4 flush board for 30 odd. Couldn't hit a flop for a while and whittled down then the weird spot came up. 2, 4, 8 straddle. Utg limps  I'm in SB with 127 and shove. What's your range here? Cos I shoved 77s and I think that is fairly standard. First straddle snaps and utg tank calls qq and an and don't suck out with first the gutshot and then the diamond draw. With 15bbs though I think this spot is about as standard as it gets. Can't fold can't call and can't raise. Not saying it's a fist pump and its probably bottom of my range (without looking at+, kq, 66+) but yeah feels weird to lose that much.

Wow, is shoving 127 to win (approx) 16 or 20 or whatever with players behind us really "standard"? Good Lord, the game has changed.

I rarely play NLH these days, (probably just as well) but that's scary-wary stuff.

Good luck, anyway, been an interesting read so far.  

Sorry if I missed it, but at what Cardroom/Casino do you play? I don't recall you mentioning it.

[Evilpengwinz]

Hello kingpush.
Very interesting this diary, and some great advice in it , esp from suuprlim and honeybadger. I play live 50-1  or 1-1 cash games and suuprlims comparison to companys is spot on imo.
I'm light years away from being an expert but imo and from what ive seen in live games , i would think above hand would be an ideal one to have a flatting range, although there has been straddle to £8  you are still really shoving 127 bbs, as its a 1-1 game imo, or am i completely wrong? what can call you thats not better, or you are in aflip with?  maybe im a nit lol, hopefully get some answers from honeybadger and suuprlim.
good luck and keep posting

I don't like flatting because there's 4 players still to act, so there's a decent chance we get isolated. When we do get to the flop, we're not gonna flop sets and get value from them often enough to make up for the times we get isolated pre and have to fold, or miss and end up c/f flop, and occasionally get stacked with a set. I'd much rather fold than flat with £127 here.

(We're also out of position, but the stack to pot ratio and that we're probably only continuing on flops with a 7 on them and never folding makes that much less important than usual)

If we have £327 instead and there's some other big stacks out there, then flat is probably okay, but our stack is too small with the £8 straddle and number of players behind to make it profitable IMO. Think limping would probably be fine if it wasn't for the final £8 straddle, though.

I've only played live cash a handful of times ever btw, so could be talking bollocks.

170 down. Had v on 4 flush board for 30 odd. Couldn't hit a flop for a while and whittled down then the weird spot came up. 2, 4, 8 straddle. Utg limps  I'm in SB with 127 and shove. What's your range here? Cos I shoved 77s and I think that is fairly standard. First straddle snaps and utg tank calls qq and an and don't suck out with first the gutshot and then the diamond draw. With 15bbs though I think this spot is about as standard as it gets. Can't fold can't call and can't raise. Not saying it's a fist pump and its probably bottom of my range (without looking at+, kq, 66+) but yeah feels weird to lose that much.

Any more info on the limper?

Same caveat about not playing live much, but I think it's okay to shove if the limper is loose passive. The amount of dead money in the pot is pretty significant, we flip against a lot of stuff that the players behind can call us with, and they're simply not going to be dealt bigger pairs often enough. Even if they do, not everyone is going to call with the mid PPs that we're dominated by. I guess we might get called by worse occasionally too if someone (especially a loose passive limper) decides they feel like having a punt with underpairs and hope they're flipping.

However, if limper is anything other than loose passive, I expect him to limp/call a decent amount and be ahead, so would just fold.

[KingPush]

Hello kingpush.
Very interesting this diary, and some great advice in it , esp from suuprlim and honeybadger. I play live 50-1  or 1-1 cash games and suuprlims comparison to companys is spot on imo.
I'm light years away from being an expert but imo and from what ive seen in live games , i would think above hand would be an ideal one to have a flatting range, although there has been straddle to £8  you are still really shoving 127 bbs, as its a 1-1 game imo, or am i completely wrong? what can call you thats not better, or you are in aflip with?  maybe im a nit lol, hopefully get some answers from honeybadger and suuprlim.
good luck and keep posting

Obviously not gonna be great when called but would be a really nitty fold considering fold equity here. when straddle to 8 it's now 1/2/4/8 rather than 1/1 so yeah it's 15 bbs.

170 down. Had v on 4 flush board for 30 odd. Couldn't hit a flop for a while and whittled down then the weird spot came up. 2, 4, 8 straddle. Utg limps  I'm in SB with 127 and shove. What's your range here? Cos I shoved 77s and I think that is fairly standard. First straddle snaps and utg tank calls qq and an and don't suck out with first the gutshot and then the diamond draw. With 15bbs though I think this spot is about as standard as it gets. Can't fold can't call and can't raise. Not saying it's a fist pump and its probably bottom of my range (without looking at+, kq, 66+) but yeah feels weird to lose that much.

Wow, is shoving 127 to win (approx) 16 or 20 or whatever with players behind us really "standard"? Good Lord, the game has changed.

I rarely play NLH these days, (probably just as well) but that's scary-wary stuff.

Good luck, anyway, been an interesting read so far. 

Sorry if I missed it, but at what Cardroom/Casino do you play? I don't recall you mentioning it.

G in Luton and Aspers in MK. Haha it's 15bbs to win 3bbs mate!

Hello kingpush.
Very interesting this diary, and some great advice in it , esp from suuprlim and honeybadger. I play live 50-1  or 1-1 cash games and suuprlims comparison to companys is spot on imo.
I'm light years away from being an expert but imo and from what ive seen in live games , i would think above hand would be an ideal one to have a flatting range, although there has been straddle to £8  you are still really shoving 127 bbs, as its a 1-1 game imo, or am i completely wrong? what can call you thats not better, or you are in aflip with?  maybe im a nit lol, hopefully get some answers from honeybadger and suuprlim.
good luck and keep posting

I don't like flatting because there's 4 players still to act, so there's a decent chance we get isolated. When we do get to the flop, we're not gonna flop sets and get value from them often enough to make up for the times we get isolated pre and have to fold, or miss and end up c/f flop, and occasionally get stacked with a set. I'd much rather fold than flat with £127 here.

(We're also out of position, but the stack to pot ratio and that we're probably only continuing on flops with a 7 on them and never folding makes that much less important than usual)

If we have £327 instead and there's some other big stacks out there, then flat is probably okay, but our stack is too small with the £8 straddle and number of players behind to make it profitable IMO. Think limping would probably be fine if it wasn't for the final £8 straddle, though.

I've only played live cash a handful of times ever btw, so could be talking bollocks.

170 down. Had v on 4 flush board for 30 odd. Couldn't hit a flop for a while and whittled down then the weird spot came up. 2, 4, 8 straddle. Utg limps  I'm in SB with 127 and shove. What's your range here? Cos I shoved 77s and I think that is fairly standard. First straddle snaps and utg tank calls qq and an and don't suck out with first the gutshot and then the diamond draw. With 15bbs though I think this spot is about as standard as it gets. Can't fold can't call and can't raise. Not saying it's a fist pump and its probably bottom of my range (without looking at+, kq, 66+) but yeah feels weird to lose that much.

Any more info on the limper?

Same caveat about not playing live much, but I think it's okay to shove if the limper is loose passive. The amount of dead money in the pot is pretty significant, we flip against a lot of stuff that the players behind can call us with, and they're simply not going to be dealt bigger pairs often enough. Even if they do, not everyone is going to call with the mid PPs that we're dominated by. I guess we might get called by worse occasionally too if someone (especially a loose passive limper) decides they feel like having a punt with underpairs and hope they're flipping.

However, if limper is anything other than loose passive, I expect him to limp/call a decent amount and be ahead, so would just fold.

Cheers man appreciate this a lot. Definitely made me feel better reading that it was an alright play even if I was 99% sure it was anyway. Limper is definitely loose passive and then nitty in these sorts of situations. The fact she tank called means she would have probably been folding about 90% of her range in this spot. Although after rereading you seem to be advocating a fold or a shove here. Genuinely think it's fairly close but if everyone folded through I'd probably be patting myself on the back about how much of a sicko I am and then realising it's fairly standard and moving on.

[david3103]

Are you John Black?

[arbboy]

170 down. Had v on 4 flush board for 30 odd. Couldn't hit a flop for a while and whittled down then the weird spot came up. 2, 4, 8 straddle. Utg limps  I'm in SB with 127 and shove. What's your range here? Cos I shoved 77s and I think that is fairly standard. First straddle snaps and utg tank calls qq and an and don't suck out with first the gutshot and then the diamond draw. With 15bbs though I think this spot is about as standard as it gets. Can't fold can't call and can't raise. Not saying it's a fist pump and its probably bottom of my range (without looking at+, kq, 66+) but yeah feels weird to lose that much.

I am always shoving here for £125 with 20% of my stack dead in the middle in a live game.  This assumes you are easily rolled to play this game.  Think it's the easiest way in the world to play ak suited given your stack/dead money.

[KingPush]

Are you John Black?

Haha no.

170 down. Had v on 4 flush board for 30 odd. Couldn't hit a flop for a while and whittled down then the weird spot came up. 2, 4, 8 straddle. Utg limps  I'm in SB with 127 and shove. What's your range here? Cos I shoved 77s and I think that is fairly standard. First straddle snaps and utg tank calls qq and an and don't suck out with first the gutshot and then the diamond draw. With 15bbs though I think this spot is about as standard as it gets. Can't fold can't call and can't raise. Not saying it's a fist pump and its probably bottom of my range (without looking at+, kq, 66+) but yeah feels weird to lose that much.

I am always shoving here for £125 with 20% of my stack dead in the middle in a live game.  This assumes you are easily rolled to play this game.  Think it's the easiest way in the world to play ak suited given your stack/dead money.

Wasn't AK was 77. Can see the confusion though as should read "utg tank calls, they have qq and ak".

[arbboy]

unless you know utg is limping for £8 to trap in a live £1/£1 game i would prob shove 77 as well to try and steal the dead cash playing £120

[Marky147]

unless you know utg is limping for £8 to trap in a live £1/£1 game i would prob shove 77 as well to try and steal the dead cash playing £120

You just know some mug that is staked will call with AQ though

[arbboy]

unless you know utg is limping for £8 to trap in a live £1/£1 game i would prob shove 77 as well to try and steal the dead cash playing £120

You just know some mug that is staked will call with AQ though

I do the jokes around here! 

[tikay]

Hello kingpush.
Very interesting this diary, and some great advice in it , esp from suuprlim and honeybadger. I play live 50-1  or 1-1 cash games and suuprlims comparison to companys is spot on imo.
I'm light years away from being an expert but imo and from what ive seen in live games , i would think above hand would be an ideal one to have a flatting range, although there has been straddle to £8  you are still really shoving 127 bbs, as its a 1-1 game imo, or am i completely wrong? what can call you thats not better, or you are in aflip with?  maybe im a nit lol, hopefully get some answers from honeybadger and suuprlim.
good luck and keep posting

Obviously not gonna be great when called but would be a really nitty fold considering fold equity here. when straddle to 8 it's now 1/2/4/8 rather than 1/1 so yeah it's 15 bbs.

170 down. Had v on 4 flush board for 30 odd. Couldn't hit a flop for a while and whittled down then the weird spot came up. 2, 4, 8 straddle. Utg limps  I'm in SB with 127 and shove. What's your range here? Cos I shoved 77s and I think that is fairly standard. First straddle snaps and utg tank calls qq and an and don't suck out with first the gutshot and then the diamond draw. With 15bbs though I think this spot is about as standard as it gets. Can't fold can't call and can't raise. Not saying it's a fist pump and its probably bottom of my range (without looking at+, kq, 66+) but yeah feels weird to lose that much.

Wow, is shoving 127 to win (approx) 16 or 20 or whatever with players behind us really "standard"? Good Lord, the game has changed.

I rarely play NLH these days, (probably just as well) but that's scary-wary stuff.

Good luck, anyway, been an interesting read so far. 

Sorry if I missed it, but at what Cardroom/Casino do you play? I don't recall you mentioning it.

G in Luton and Aspers in MK. Haha it's 15bbs to win 3bbs mate!

Hello kingpush.
Very interesting this diary, and some great advice in it , esp from suuprlim and honeybadger. I play live 50-1  or 1-1 cash games and suuprlims comparison to companys is spot on imo.
I'm light years away from being an expert but imo and from what ive seen in live games , i would think above hand would be an ideal one to have a flatting range, although there has been straddle to £8  you are still really shoving 127 bbs, as its a 1-1 game imo, or am i completely wrong? what can call you thats not better, or you are in aflip with?  maybe im a nit lol, hopefully get some answers from honeybadger and suuprlim.
good luck and keep posting

I don't like flatting because there's 4 players still to act, so there's a decent chance we get isolated. When we do get to the flop, we're not gonna flop sets and get value from them often enough to make up for the times we get isolated pre and have to fold, or miss and end up c/f flop, and occasionally get stacked with a set. I'd much rather fold than flat with £127 here.

(We're also out of position, but the stack to pot ratio and that we're probably only continuing on flops with a 7 on them and never folding makes that much less important than usual)

If we have £327 instead and there's some other big stacks out there, then flat is probably okay, but our stack is too small with the £8 straddle and number of players behind to make it profitable IMO. Think limping would probably be fine if it wasn't for the final £8 straddle, though.

I've only played live cash a handful of times ever btw, so could be talking bollocks.

170 down. Had v on 4 flush board for 30 odd. Couldn't hit a flop for a while and whittled down then the weird spot came up. 2, 4, 8 straddle. Utg limps  I'm in SB with 127 and shove. What's your range here? Cos I shoved 77s and I think that is fairly standard. First straddle snaps and utg tank calls qq and an and don't suck out with first the gutshot and then the diamond draw. With 15bbs though I think this spot is about as standard as it gets. Can't fold can't call and can't raise. Not saying it's a fist pump and its probably bottom of my range (without looking at+, kq, 66+) but yeah feels weird to lose that much.

Any more info on the limper?

Same caveat about not playing live much, but I think it's okay to shove if the limper is loose passive. The amount of dead money in the pot is pretty significant, we flip against a lot of stuff that the players behind can call us with, and they're simply not going to be dealt bigger pairs often enough. Even if they do, not everyone is going to call with the mid PPs that we're dominated by. I guess we might get called by worse occasionally too if someone (especially a loose passive limper) decides they feel like having a punt with underpairs and hope they're flipping.

However, if limper is anything other than loose passive, I expect him to limp/call a decent amount and be ahead, so would just fold.

Cheers man appreciate this a lot. Definitely made me feel better reading that it was an alright play even if I was 99% sure it was anyway. Limper is definitely loose passive and then nitty in these sorts of situations. The fact she tank called means she would have probably been folding about 90% of her range in this spot. Although after rereading you seem to be advocating a fold or a shove here. Genuinely think it's fairly close but if everyone folded through I'd probably be patting myself on the back about how much of a sicko I am and then realising it's fairly standard and moving on.

Ahh, misread it, sorry mate......

[verndog158]

Kingpush, how would you play the hand, if it was just the 4 straddle on?

[KingPush]

Kingpush, how would you play the hand, if it was just the 4 straddle on?

Completely different that would give me 30 BBS so would prob raise to 24 and fold to 3bet and not cbet many flops.

[Honeybadger]

Kingpush, how would you play the hand, if it was just the 4 straddle on?

Completely different that would give me 30 BBS so would prob raise to 24 and fold to 3bet and not cbet many flops.

Nah just flat the extra £3 if only a £4 straddle and play for the times you hit a set in a 5 way pot. However it is perfectly understandable why you don't want to flat the £8 straddle. That said, with the £8 straddle it is still close. If you have a read that the straddlers are passive then you can profitably flat there too. As a rule of thumb, you can set mine for a much bigger % of your stack in many spots in live games, because so often it goes 5+ ways to a flop so your implied odds are better than you might think.

If you want to raise/fold with the £4 straddle then 77 is a really bad part of your range to do it with. Burning equity, no blockers (actually reverse blockers) etc. Prefer stuff like raggy Ax hands, since these at least have a blocker to your opponents' 3betting ranges.

[jezza777]

What are reverse blockers? Cards that will never / rarely be in opponents 3b range?

[SuuPRlim]

What are reverse blockers? Cards that will never / rarely be in opponents 3b range?

Best hands to find yourself against with 77 is 7x or (22-66)