UWOTM8! (50nl Zoom BVB)

[Rexas]

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $50 (100 bb)
Hero (BB): $52.75 (105.5 bb)
UTG: $15.50 (31 bb)
MP: $93.19 (186.4 bb)
CO: $42.66 (85.3 bb)
BTN: $55.68 (111.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with
4 folds, SB raises to $1.50, Hero raises to $4.50, SB raises to $10.50, Hero calls $6

Flop: ($21) (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($21) (2 players)
SB bets $12, Hero calls $12

River: ($45) (2 players)
SB bets $27.50 and is all-in, Hero...

Final Board:


I guess I'm looking for thoughts on all four streets. No stats worth mentioning.

[PaintingByNumbers]

Think it's fine up to the River.
Using a default BB Flat vs SB 4b range that I think is reasonable here, I reckon you should call some and fold some on the River, the more exact proportions would depend on how you balance draws and middle pairs on the Turn, and what your range to Flat the 4b is obviously.
I imagine I would try to use stats to make my decision for me, however meagre. Let the small sample act as a randomiser.

I think 4b pots are going to be rare enough at this level that it is hard to predict what you're going to be up against as the villain will be inexperienced and experimenting often.
Others might have better exploitative strategies here, but I can't say I am experienced enough in these spots to have one.

[muckthenuts]

I think it's wp up to river too. Facing a 4bet when readless should typically be given a lot of respect in 50z, but it is sb vs bb which will have enough set dynamic to justify peeling AQs in position imo.

I would fold river and be happy about it. Seems like a really bad card for him to choose to bluff, i don't think you're expected to be folding very often.

[muckthenuts]

Also just have a quick glance at how many tables a guy is playing, a fairly useful indicator of competence when playing zoom without reads or sample sizes.

[theprawnidentity]

My experience of these spots at NL50 is that if it's close, just assume people aren't capable of bluffing in these spots until they prove otherwise (unless their line is just complete hokum obviously).  That being said he can have AJ/AT with the As a bit

[PaintingByNumbers]

Had another look at this and realised I used the wrong range.

I think AQ will be at the top of our range on the Turn (apart from any NFD we checked on the Flop) and that, therefore, we have to Call on the River.

It's certainly possible that the SB's range, esp if he uses Kxs as bluffs, monsters this board so much that we don't want to defend properly, but then the flop looks dynamic enough that in this case they would probably just bet the Flop. Any thoughts on this?

My experience of these spots at NL50 is that if it's close, just assume people aren't capable of bluffing in these spots until they prove otherwise (unless their line is just complete hokum obviously).  That being said he can have AJ/AT with the As a bit

Although I don't 4b bluff AJ/ATo here, I do think they are the type of hand that a player in the process of expanding his ranges (something that we should expect at NL50) would 4b bluff. Though they would often be bluffed on the Flop, I can certainly imagine some players pausing in the face of the unexpected flat of the 4b, before retaking the initiative once the Flop is checked through.

Also just have a quick glance at how many tables a guy is playing, a fairly useful indicator of competence when playing zoom without reads or sample sizes.

Good point, we'll normally have at least some info we can use.

I would fold river and be happy about it. Seems like a really bad card for him to choose to bluff, i don't think you're expected to be folding very often.

Maybe, but seems risky to Fold all of our AQ as it makes up so much of our range.

I guess I'm looking for thoughts on all four streets. No stats worth mentioning.

Against aggressive players in the blinds (a category in which we should include ourselves), I think we can 5b shove AQs here, close though. I think it's (just) strong enough and his bluffs will have a lot of equity versus our hand, plus it might allow us to 5b bluff a little more (not sure about this last point though).

It can fairly be argued that some players won't 4b bluff enough for this to be viable, but I find that others, when opening up their ranges, make the bluffs but baulk at opening up their value range enough to balance this.

[PaintingByNumbers]

I think AQ will be at the top of our range on the Turn (apart from any NFD we checked on the Flop) and that, therefore, we have to Call on the River.

I suppose we could have AsAx too, still leaves us needing some AQ tho imo.

[Oxford_HRV]

Although I don't 4b bluff AJ/ATo here, I do think they are the type of hand that a player in the process of expanding his ranges (something that we should expect at NL50) would 4b bluff. Though they would often be bluffed on the Flop, I can certainly imagine some players pausing in the face of the unexpected flat of the 4b, before retaking the initiative once the Flop is checked through.

this.

vs your calling range idk what hands wouldnt take initiative on the flop.

what hands would ppl c/b/j for value!?
does anyone not continue with any part of their own 4b range on that flop?? (then take this line)

always calling with AQ

[pleno1]

i just feel like we're beat.

[DMorgan]

He can have AA and and the remaining combos of KK and QQ too, I'm folding without a reason to think that he's gunna get out of line with exactly hands like AJ, AT Asx

[AlexMartin]

He can have AA and and the remaining combos of KK and QQ too, I'm folding without a reason to think that he's gunna get out of line with exactly hands like AJ, AT Asx

thoughts on AA with or without the As being too thin?

[KingPush]

I think it's a fold. Prefer to bluff catch with aq with a spade unless we have a read on villain.

[Rexas]

I guess I should close this thread out - I thought pre could go either way, I don't think jamming can be bad given that SB vs BB dynamic and the fact that as such I'd expect perhaps more bluffs than usual from the villain. Pretty much for the same reason I called, because I imagine a bunch of the hands that would make up a 4bet bluffing range here are dominated by AQ. Also this seems like a fine hand to flat given we would also be likely to flat with AA/KK quite a lot of the time.

Flop again I thought there was a decision, at the time because I thought I wouldn't be checking very many value hands at all on this board and I'm sorta leaving myself open to exactly the situation we found ourselves in. Again, though, I would be checking back Askx and AsAx too so whatever. At the same time I expect villain to fire any turn card with a lot of his range, since he could well of shat himself when I flatted the 4bet (as I seem to see quite a bit), and as oxford/PbN said I wasn't quite sure what to make of villains flop check. As PbN said, I kinda expected him to continue the flop a lot with his value range and most stuff that had an excuse to.

Turn seemed like a pretty easy call, we've gotta be pretty far up our range here and for the reasons above I expect to be in reasonable shape vs his range.

River was pretty bleurgh, made it less likely he had KK which was the obvious value hand to check flop with but at the same time seemed like a pretty bad card to bluff. I ended up calling basically because of what painting by numbers mentioned, where I expected I was pretty high up my range ott and hence still up there otr. Also hoped I was going to be good here a quarter of the time or so, although in the back of my mind I had some reasonable doubts about this :p Frankly I wasn't sure what to think, seemed like there were reasonable arguments both ways.

I was somewhat surprised when he tabled   , but yeah. Discussed each street at pretty reasonable length with a few people and couldnt reach a proper consensus, thought it was a fun hand and wanted to see what everyone else thought. Fwiw, the problem I have with using   Q as the AQ combo(s) to defend with is that the villain can't have it, and this seems like one of the cards he may check flop with but go decide to go after the pot with ott. Idk if this is wrong logic since we'd prefer to have the blocker :p

Poker's fun innit

 

[PaintingByNumbers]

He can have AA and and the remaining combos of KK and QQ too, I'm folding without a reason to think that he's gunna get out of line with exactly hands like AJ, AT Asx

KK and QQ definitely, but that's only 2 combos. AsAx and AsKx seem to make sense, but I suppose I really was stretching to think of bluffs that play fairly 'naturally' this way.

I guess I should close this thread out

Discussed each street at pretty reasonable length with a few people and couldn't reach a proper consensus, thought it was a fun hand and wanted to see what everyone else thought.

Poker's fun innit

I agree and I enjoyed thinking about this hand. I don't play too many 4b Pots (even though I am willing to call) but they are bigger than normal so important to get better. I imagine 4b Flatting ranges are varied though, which limits fluent discussion.

I dislike villain's play, I think I would definitely want to clear out AJ and AT, but again that depends on our actual and perceived range.

I agree with you (Rexas) about the As, but given the actual hand it might be better to concentrate on blocking Value than not blocking the bluffs. This is a hand that left me a little confused!