A Taxing debate

[DaveShoelace]

Surely taxing any system that allows play across borders that include the ability to offset losses are easily worked around. You'd just dump all your profits to your mate in Amsterdam and take a long weekend picking up your cash every month

This might explain what Gus Hansen is doing.

[AlunB]

Surely taxing any system that allows play across borders that include the ability to offset losses are easily worked around. You'd just dump all your profits to your mate in Amsterdam and take a long weekend picking up your cash every month

It's interesting quite a few people had adopted the, if the law moves against you move against the law approach.

Do you think most poker pros would rather resort to borderline criminality than simply pay tax?

yes.

Have you no social responsibility?

Why shouldn't you pay tax?

Everyone else does.

If I was a young person in Europe today I would have absolutely zero social responsibility.  Ridiculous house prices, massive youth unemployment caused by austerity to protect the wealth of the rich, propping up the banks for the same reason.  I couldn't possible criticise someone who decided to look after themself.

That's such a depressing viewpoint. That's exactly the mentality of the people at the top.

[AlunB]

borderline criminality is a bit over the top surely?  Moving to another country you are 100% legally entitled to under EU law to reduce your expenses as a business is hardly 'borderline criminality'.

Yeah my wording wasn't the best. But as Pleno says I was reacting the the concept of chip dumping and collecting a brown bag of cash once a month and other suggeations of falsifying accounts. Moving country is fine by me. Freedom of movement and all that.

[arbboy]

Surely taxing any system that allows play across borders that include the ability to offset losses are easily worked around. You'd just dump all your profits to your mate in Amsterdam and take a long weekend picking up your cash every month

It's interesting quite a few people had adopted the, if the law moves against you move against the law approach.

Do you think most poker pros would rather resort to borderline criminality than simply pay tax?

yes.

Have you no social responsibility?

Why shouldn't you pay tax?

Everyone else does.

If I was a young person in Europe today I would have absolutely zero social responsibility.  Ridiculous house prices, massive youth unemployment caused by austerity to protect the wealth of the rich, propping up the banks for the same reason.  I couldn't possible criticise someone who decided to look after themself.

That's such a depressing viewpoint. That's exactly the mentality of the people at the top.

I agree it's a depressing viewpoint but as a single man with no children i pay way more tax, without even paying income tax at all, than i ever get back from the system in services received.  I have never once felt bad about performing my chosen profession in the last 10 years without paying income tax.  I just took advantage of a tax law at the time which still exists.  As i have said before, sit down and work out how much tax you pay a year on all your expenditure like i have, and you will realise you still pay far more tax than you ever get back in services.  That has virtually always been the case for me for my whole life whether i pay income tax or i don't (i have 9 years of paying and 9 years of not paying).  I find it really annoying when i get told in 'normal' company outside of gambling circles i am a tax dodger/non tax payer etc etc in the same way as these same people would be offended if i told them they shouldn't have children if they can't afford to bring them up without taking benefits from the system to do so.  We all have choices in life.

[AlunB]

Surely taxing any system that allows play across borders that include the ability to offset losses are easily worked around. You'd just dump all your profits to your mate in Amsterdam and take a long weekend picking up your cash every month

It's interesting quite a few people had adopted the, if the law moves against you move against the law approach.

Do you think most poker pros would rather resort to borderline criminality than simply pay tax?

yes.

Have you no social responsibility?

Why shouldn't you pay tax?

Everyone else does.

Thousands of people on benefits too lazy to work with children don't pay any income tax (even though they 'earn' way above the personal tax allowances in benefits in some cases having effective gross incomes of £60/70k pa if you gross up the net value of their benefits) should they not feel an even bigger social responsibility as they have children/keep having children whilst on benefits who are a much bigger drain on the system than poker players who take very little, if anything out of the social security till, and are usually single?

I am not looking for a ruck here but there are possibly millions of people in the UK who don't pay income tax and another several more million who pay very little if they do.  The main reason i choose to become a professional gambler was the tax advantage of being legally allowed to do it.  There are not many other upsides and plenty of downsides as listed before.  If in 2005 i would have been taxed on it in line with any other job i would have probably chosen to have stayed in paid employment tbh.

The vast vast majority of those not paying tax do so because they are really fkn poor and are struggling to get by mate

[arbboy]

Surely taxing any system that allows play across borders that include the ability to offset losses are easily worked around. You'd just dump all your profits to your mate in Amsterdam and take a long weekend picking up your cash every month

It's interesting quite a few people had adopted the, if the law moves against you move against the law approach.

Do you think most poker pros would rather resort to borderline criminality than simply pay tax?

yes.

Have you no social responsibility?

Why shouldn't you pay tax?

Everyone else does.

Thousands of people on benefits too lazy to work with children don't pay any income tax (even though they 'earn' way above the personal tax allowances in benefits in some cases having effective gross incomes of £60/70k pa if you gross up the net value of their benefits) should they not feel an even bigger social responsibility as they have children/keep having children whilst on benefits who are a much bigger drain on the system than poker players who take very little, if anything out of the social security till, and are usually single?

I am not looking for a ruck here but there are possibly millions of people in the UK who don't pay income tax and another several more million who pay very little if they do.  The main reason i choose to become a professional gambler was the tax advantage of being legally allowed to do it.  There are not many other upsides and plenty of downsides as listed before.  If in 2005 i would have been taxed on it in line with any other job i would have probably chosen to have stayed in paid employment tbh.

The vast vast majority of those not paying tax do so because they are really fkn poor and are struggling to get by mate

I am not disagreeing with you.  The point was made because the original statement said 'everyone pays tax' i just wanted to clarify that is not strictly true.

What about families who choose to have 8 kids who can't afford them yet received 'salaries of £70k/£80k effectively from the state in benefits' but don't pay a single penny of income tax even though their 'income' in benefits takes them easily over the higher rate of tax never mind the basic rate?  This is the reason why people get fucked off with the system when however they choose to work/pay income tax etc don't really care about not paying their share when the real scum of society just keep abusing the system.  If there is a way not to fund these people in 2014 legally (like being a professional gambler) i will do whatever I can not to pay.  Last time i looked i have never signed on/claimed a penny, broke any laws through out my life through my choice of employment and dodged any social responibility (ie i pay way more tax every year than i ever get back out of the system) yet people who choose the same employment route as me are made to feel like we are the criminals in all of this. 

[nirvana]

Surely taxing any system that allows play across borders that include the ability to offset losses are easily worked around. You'd just dump all your profits to your mate in Amsterdam and take a long weekend picking up your cash every month

It's interesting quite a few people had adopted the, if the law moves against you move against the law approach.

Do you think most poker pros would rather resort to borderline criminality than simply pay tax?

yes.

Have you no social responsibility?

Why shouldn't you pay tax?

Everyone else does.

If I was a young person in Europe today I would have absolutely zero social responsibility.  Ridiculous house prices, massive youth unemployment caused by austerity to protect the wealth of the rich, propping up the banks for the same reason.  I couldn't possible criticise someone who decided to look after themself.

That's such a depressing viewpoint. That's exactly the mentality of the people at the top.

I agree it's a depressing viewpoint but as a single man with no children i pay way more tax, without even paying income tax at all, than i ever get back from the system in services received.  I have never once felt bad about performing my chosen profession in the last 10 years without paying income tax.  I just took advantage of a tax law at the time which still exists.  As i have said before, sit down and work out how much tax you pay a year on all your expenditure like i have, and you will realise you still pay far more tax than you ever get back in services.  That has virtually always been the case for me for my whole life whether i pay income tax or i don't (i have 9 years of paying and 9 years of not paying).  I find it really annoying when i get told in 'normal' company outside of gambling circles i am a tax dodger/non tax payer etc etc in the same way as these same people would be offended if i told them they shouldn't have children if they can't afford to bring them up without taking benefits from the system to do so.  We all have choices in life.

I have some sympathy for your perspective of having your own moral compass and determining the level of tax you pay is appropriate or makes you a net contributor ergo 'don't look at me'.

Pretty sure most non tax payers don't work this out but maybe that's because it is an irrelevance - of course there are net contributors and net taker outers - that's kind of the point and so it is legitimate to assert that, you, as a non income tax payer should pay some direct taxation too.

Regrettably, you, like most people could be one operation/one illness away from becoming a massive net taker outer. Even if it was just for this reason, your argument about your personal  current P & L with the Government is pretty worthless - yah, worthless.

[pleno1]

Surely taxing any system that allows play across borders that include the ability to offset losses are easily worked around. You'd just dump all your profits to your mate in Amsterdam and take a long weekend picking up your cash every month

It's interesting quite a few people had adopted the, if the law moves against you move against the law approach.

Do you think most poker pros would rather resort to borderline criminality than simply pay tax?

yes.

Have you no social responsibility?

Why shouldn't you pay tax?

Everyone else does.

read the question again, bro.

[The Camel]

Surely taxing any system that allows play across borders that include the ability to offset losses are easily worked around. You'd just dump all your profits to your mate in Amsterdam and take a long weekend picking up your cash every month

It's interesting quite a few people had adopted the, if the law moves against you move against the law approach.

Do you think most poker pros would rather resort to borderline criminality than simply pay tax?

yes.

Have you no social responsibility?

Why shouldn't you pay tax?

Everyone else does.

Thousands of people on benefits too lazy to work with children don't pay any income tax (even though they 'earn' way above the personal tax allowances in benefits in some cases having effective gross incomes of £60/70k pa if you gross up the net value of their benefits) should they not feel an even bigger social responsibility as they have children/keep having children whilst on benefits who are a much bigger drain on the system than poker players who take very little, if anything out of the social security till, and are usually single?

I am not looking for a ruck here but there are possibly millions of people in the UK who don't pay income tax and another several more million who pay very little if they do.  The main reason i choose to become a professional gambler was the tax advantage of being legally allowed to do it.  There are not many other upsides and plenty of downsides as listed before.  If in 2005 i would have been taxed on it in line with any other job i would have probably chosen to have stayed in paid employment tbh.

The vast vast majority of those not paying tax do so because they are really fkn poor and are struggling to get by mate

I am not disagreeing with you.  The point was made because the original statement said 'everyone pays tax' i just wanted to clarify that is not strictly true.

What about families who choose to have 8 kids who can't afford them yet received 'salaries of £70k/£80k effectively from the state in benefits' but don't pay a single penny of income tax even though their 'income' in benefits takes them easily over the higher rate of tax never mind the basic rate?  This is the reason why people get fucked off with the system when however they choose to work/pay income tax etc don't really care about not paying their share when the real scum of society just keep abusing the system.  If there is a way not to fund this people in 2014 will do whatever they can not to pay.

Just because a tiny percentage of the population are scumbags with no conscience doesn't mean "If it's ok for them, it's ok for me".

That's the path to anarchy.

[AlunB]

Surely taxing any system that allows play across borders that include the ability to offset losses are easily worked around. You'd just dump all your profits to your mate in Amsterdam and take a long weekend picking up your cash every month

It's interesting quite a few people had adopted the, if the law moves against you move against the law approach.

Do you think most poker pros would rather resort to borderline criminality than simply pay tax?

yes.

Have you no social responsibility?

Why shouldn't you pay tax?

Everyone else does.

If I was a young person in Europe today I would have absolutely zero social responsibility.  Ridiculous house prices, massive youth unemployment caused by austerity to protect the wealth of the rich, propping up the banks for the same reason.  I couldn't possible criticise someone who decided to look after themself.

That's such a depressing viewpoint. That's exactly the mentality of the people at the top.

I agree it's a depressing viewpoint but as a single man with no children i pay way more tax, without even paying income tax at all, than i ever get back from the system in services received.  I have never once felt bad about performing my chosen profession in the last 10 years without paying income tax.  I just took advantage of a tax law at the time which still exists.  As i have said before, sit down and work out how much tax you pay a year on all your expenditure like i have, and you will realise you still pay far more tax than you ever get back in services.  That has virtually always been the case for me for my whole life whether i pay income tax or i don't (i have 9 years of paying and 9 years of not paying).  I find it really annoying when i get told in 'normal' company outside of gambling circles i am a tax dodger/non tax payer etc etc in the same way as these same people would be offended if i told them they shouldn't have children if they can't afford to bring them up without taking benefits from the system to do so.  We all have choices in life.

I have some sympathy for your perspective of having your own moral compass and determining the level of tax you pay is appropriate or makes you a net contributor ergo 'don't look at me'.

Pretty sure most non tax payers don't work this out but maybe that's because it is an irrelevance - of course there are net contributors and net taker outers - that's kind of the point and so it is legitimate to assert that, you, as a non income tax payer should pay some direct taxation too.

Regrettably, you, like most people could be one operation/one illness away from becoming a massive net taker outer. Even if it was just for this reason, your argument about your personal  current P & L with the Government is pretty worthless - yah, worthless.

Nailed it.

So you never went to school?

Education and health are the biggest two chunks of public spending and we all get our fair go out of those before our time is done. And that's not even getting into the police or transport or all the myriad other day to day stuff.

[arbboy]

Surely taxing any system that allows play across borders that include the ability to offset losses are easily worked around. You'd just dump all your profits to your mate in Amsterdam and take a long weekend picking up your cash every month

It's interesting quite a few people had adopted the, if the law moves against you move against the law approach.

Do you think most poker pros would rather resort to borderline criminality than simply pay tax?

yes.

Have you no social responsibility?

Why shouldn't you pay tax?

Everyone else does.

Thousands of people on benefits too lazy to work with children don't pay any income tax (even though they 'earn' way above the personal tax allowances in benefits in some cases having effective gross incomes of £60/70k pa if you gross up the net value of their benefits) should they not feel an even bigger social responsibility as they have children/keep having children whilst on benefits who are a much bigger drain on the system than poker players who take very little, if anything out of the social security till, and are usually single?

I am not looking for a ruck here but there are possibly millions of people in the UK who don't pay income tax and another several more million who pay very little if they do.  The main reason i choose to become a professional gambler was the tax advantage of being legally allowed to do it.  There are not many other upsides and plenty of downsides as listed before.  If in 2005 i would have been taxed on it in line with any other job i would have probably chosen to have stayed in paid employment tbh.

The vast vast majority of those not paying tax do so because they are really fkn poor and are struggling to get by mate

I am not disagreeing with you.  The point was made because the original statement said 'everyone pays tax' i just wanted to clarify that is not strictly true.

What about families who choose to have 8 kids who can't afford them yet received 'salaries of £70k/£80k effectively from the state in benefits' but don't pay a single penny of income tax even though their 'income' in benefits takes them easily over the higher rate of tax never mind the basic rate?  This is the reason why people get fucked off with the system when however they choose to work/pay income tax etc don't really care about not paying their share when the real scum of society just keep abusing the system.  If there is a way not to fund this people in 2014 will do whatever they can not to pay.

Just because a tiny percentage of the population are scumbags with no conscience doesn't mean "If it's ok for them, it's ok for me".

That's the path to anarchy.

I am not a scumbag though.  I choose my profession because of the tax laws determined by the govt not by me.  I don't fecklessly produce children and expect someone else to pay for them.  I don't expect fellow tax payers to fund my lifestyle via the benefit system.  These are the real scumbags in society not professional gamblers.

[DaveShoelace]

Surely taxing any system that allows play across borders that include the ability to offset losses are easily worked around. You'd just dump all your profits to your mate in Amsterdam and take a long weekend picking up your cash every month

It's interesting quite a few people had adopted the, if the law moves against you move against the law approach.

Do you think most poker pros would rather resort to borderline criminality than simply pay tax?

yes.

Have you no social responsibility?

Why shouldn't you pay tax?

Everyone else does.

Thousands of people on benefits too lazy to work with children don't pay any income tax (even though they 'earn' way above the personal tax allowances in benefits in some cases having effective gross incomes of £60/70k pa if you gross up the net value of their benefits) should they not feel an even bigger social responsibility as they have children/keep having children whilst on benefits who are a much bigger drain on the system than poker players who take very little, if anything out of the social security till, and are usually single?

I am not looking for a ruck here but there are possibly millions of people in the UK who don't pay income tax and another several more million who pay very little if they do.  The main reason i choose to become a professional gambler was the tax advantage of being legally allowed to do it.  There are not many other upsides and plenty of downsides as listed before.  If in 2005 i would have been taxed on it in line with any other job i would have probably chosen to have stayed in paid employment tbh.

The vast vast majority of those not paying tax do so because they are really fkn poor and are struggling to get by mate

I am not disagreeing with you.  The point was made because the original statement said 'everyone pays tax' i just wanted to clarify that is not strictly true.

What about families who choose to have 8 kids who can't afford them yet received 'salaries of £70k/£80k effectively from the state in benefits' but don't pay a single penny of income tax even though their 'income' in benefits takes them easily over the higher rate of tax never mind the basic rate?  This is the reason why people get fucked off with the system when however they choose to work/pay income tax etc don't really care about not paying their share when the real scum of society just keep abusing the system.  If there is a way not to fund this people in 2014 will do whatever they can not to pay.

Just because a tiny percentage of the population are scumbags with no conscience doesn't mean "If it's ok for them, it's ok for me".

That's the path to anarchy.

I am not a scumbag though.  I choose my profession because of the tax laws determined by the govt not by me.  I don't fecklessly produce children and expect someone else to pay for them.  I don't expect fellow tax payers to fund my lifestyle via the benefit system.  These are the real scumbags in society not professional gamblers.

When did this thread become the daily mail comments section?

[arbboy]

Do you think people earning £60k/£70k in benefits (salary equilvalent when it is grossed up) should be subject to income tax any more or less than a professional gambler who earns the same?

[DaveShoelace]

Do you think people earning £60k/£70k in benefits (salary equilvalent when it is grossed up) should be subject to income tax any more or less than a professional gambler who earns the same?

They probably pay a shit load of tax on all the fags, booze and scratchcards they buy with it anyway, so no need.

[doubleup]

Camel - Thatcher then globalisation chucked society in the bin.  I'd love it to come back, but it isn't going to.