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Author Topic: Dear Pleno.......Best Regards, Richard  (Read 32067 times)
tikay
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« Reply #120 on: October 25, 2014, 11:01:13 PM »

One way of stopping HUDs would be to stop HHs being stored locally, basically give players no access to their hand histories. That way, PT/HEM would have no data on which to create its stats.

I am sure this is not the only way though.

I do realise that if such software is going to be banned then it must be possible to police it effectively - either to actually prevent its use through technical means, or to make sure there is a reasonable chance that someone using it can be caught. Because if something is banned but people who break the ban are very unlikely to get caught then all that you are doing is giving a massive edge to unethical cheats at the expense of everyone else who follows the rules.

I guess one issue with policing a ban on HUDs and seating scripts is that this likely requires Stars to 'spy' on users' computers - have software that tells Stars what other programs are running on a users' computer whilst they are playing on the site. I imagine that most people would find this an invasion of privacy.

Why not have a poker site with no hand histories full stop?  Why do you need them?  You don't get recorded hand histories when you play live.  No casual player ever looks at HH's just the winners. You would make more money getting rid of HH's in rake as the pro's edge would be smaller and the rake would churn more plus you could sell it to the casual's better saying they had a better chance of winning.

Hand Histories have some good - all the major collusion problems that have been solved have been because we have hh's to analyze. Shitty trade off I know...

No. The sites would still be able to access them.
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scotty77
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« Reply #121 on: October 25, 2014, 11:01:42 PM »

Dan, I don't fully understand how it all works - I only heard of the seating script and cartel system today! So can I ask you a question?

Is it the case that the cartel system actually might make things slightly better for a recreational player? Because it keeps a lot of the weaker bum-hunting regs (who would beat up the recs) out of the games, and so there is a better reg/rec balance. Which means there is at least a TINY chance that a rec may occasionally get to sit with another rec. Or have I misunderstood?

One thing I am pretty sure I have understood correctly is that it is the seating scripts that are causing the problem, not the cartel system. Seating scripts, HUDs and other such things are very bad for the long-term health of poker. It would be better if they had never been created, and it would be better if they were banned. But Stars are not going to do that are they?

Surely it would be very difficult to ban HUDS, since someone would be able to figure out a way in which one could operate through the bans? Like I'm fairly sure it would be possible to get a HUD to work on sky poker, and I'm sure if a site as big as stars came along and banned them someone would work out a way around it.

Someone did.  It was stopped within a day.

On Sky Poker I suspect the traffic volume and user base of Skyscraper wouldn't make it worth keeping up the effort to rewrite the hand history capturing method, whatever it was, as and when Sky Poker blocked it.

Now if PokerStars or Full Tilt were to ban the use of tracking software / locally stores hand histories I'm absolutely certain someone would just write a screen scraping program to create them on the fly.  

I'm sure some enterprising programmer in Croatia would be on the case.   Wink

I'm almost certain that the way that Sky has stopped HHs being accessed couldn't be cracked and it would be instantly detected if it was.  Its a pretty simple system actually (well from how I understand it)
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tikay
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« Reply #122 on: October 25, 2014, 11:03:38 PM »

One way of stopping HUDs would be to stop HHs being stored locally, basically give players no access to their hand histories. That way, PT/HEM would have no data on which to create its stats.

I am sure this is not the only way though.

I do realise that if such software is going to be banned then it must be possible to police it effectively - either to actually prevent its use through technical means, or to make sure there is a reasonable chance that someone using it can be caught. Because if something is banned but people who break the ban are very unlikely to get caught then all that you are doing is giving a massive edge to unethical cheats at the expense of everyone else who follows the rules.

I guess one issue with policing a ban on HUDs and seating scripts is that this likely requires Stars to 'spy' on users' computers - have software that tells Stars what other programs are running on a users' computer whilst they are playing on the site. I imagine that most people would find this an invasion of privacy.

Why not have a poker site with no hand histories full stop?  Why do you need them?  You don't get recorded hand histories when you play live.  No casual player ever looks at HH's just the winners. You would make more money getting rid of HH's in rake as the pro's edge would be smaller and the rake would churn more plus you could sell it to the casual's better saying they had a better chance of winning.

Hand Histories have some good - all the major collusion problems that have been solved have been because we have hh's to analyze. Shitty trade off I know...

the company could keep these for collusion reasons but not make them available to all.

Correct.
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« Reply #123 on: October 25, 2014, 11:04:21 PM »

Why not have a poker site with no hand histories full stop?  Why do you need them?  You don't get recorded hand histories when you play live.

I think this would be a great idea.

The sad fact is that we are all stuck with the huge volatility that stars offer.  

FYP

RIP Winamax
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scotty77
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« Reply #124 on: October 25, 2014, 11:05:24 PM »

Why not have a poker site with no hand histories full stop?  Why do you need them?  You don't get recorded hand histories when you play live.

I think this would be a great idea.

The sad fact is that we are all stuck with the huge volatility that stars offer.  

FYP

RIP Winamax

Agree there Sad  How easy is it to get a french bank account Sad
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KarmaDope
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« Reply #125 on: October 25, 2014, 11:11:55 PM »

One way of stopping HUDs would be to stop HHs being stored locally, basically give players no access to their hand histories. That way, PT/HEM would have no data on which to create its stats.

I am sure this is not the only way though.

I do realise that if such software is going to be banned then it must be possible to police it effectively - either to actually prevent its use through technical means, or to make sure there is a reasonable chance that someone using it can be caught. Because if something is banned but people who break the ban are very unlikely to get caught then all that you are doing is giving a massive edge to unethical cheats at the expense of everyone else who follows the rules.

I guess one issue with policing a ban on HUDs and seating scripts is that this likely requires Stars to 'spy' on users' computers - have software that tells Stars what other programs are running on a users' computer whilst they are playing on the site. I imagine that most people would find this an invasion of privacy.

Why not have a poker site with no hand histories full stop?  Why do you need them?  You don't get recorded hand histories when you play live.  No casual player ever looks at HH's just the winners. You would make more money getting rid of HH's in rake as the pro's edge would be smaller and the rake would churn more plus you could sell it to the casual's better saying they had a better chance of winning.

Hand Histories have some good - all the major collusion problems that have been solved have been because we have hh's to analyze. Shitty trade off I know...

No. The sites would still be able to access them.

I agree, but the sites dont exactly have the best record at spotting collusion - afaik most of the big ones (Chinese stud being the best known one but most bot issues are spotted by players, not pros) because the players analyze the games using HM/PT. The sites dont do this.
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George2Loose
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« Reply #126 on: October 25, 2014, 11:12:17 PM »

Just ban poker
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Ole Ole Ole Ole!
tikay
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« Reply #127 on: October 25, 2014, 11:18:49 PM »

One way of stopping HUDs would be to stop HHs being stored locally, basically give players no access to their hand histories. That way, PT/HEM would have no data on which to create its stats.

I am sure this is not the only way though.

I do realise that if such software is going to be banned then it must be possible to police it effectively - either to actually prevent its use through technical means, or to make sure there is a reasonable chance that someone using it can be caught. Because if something is banned but people who break the ban are very unlikely to get caught then all that you are doing is giving a massive edge to unethical cheats at the expense of everyone else who follows the rules.

I guess one issue with policing a ban on HUDs and seating scripts is that this likely requires Stars to 'spy' on users' computers - have software that tells Stars what other programs are running on a users' computer whilst they are playing on the site. I imagine that most people would find this an invasion of privacy.

Why not have a poker site with no hand histories full stop?  Why do you need them?  You don't get recorded hand histories when you play live.  No casual player ever looks at HH's just the winners. You would make more money getting rid of HH's in rake as the pro's edge would be smaller and the rake would churn more plus you could sell it to the casual's better saying they had a better chance of winning.

Hand Histories have some good - all the major collusion problems that have been solved have been because we have hh's to analyze. Shitty trade off I know...

No. The sites would still be able to access them.

I agree, but the sites dont exactly have the best record at spotting collusion - afaik most of the big ones (Chinese stud being the best known one but most bot issues are spotted by players, not pros) because the players analyze the games using HM/PT. The sites dont do this.

Some site don't allow or facilitate HM/PT.
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« Reply #128 on: October 25, 2014, 11:37:29 PM »

On a smaller site such as Sky I'm not worried that much about collusion - big rings are less likely to target it as less money to be made, and I have confidence that the site will spot most collusion problems when a player reports them as its easier to investigate due to less hands to observe (I dont believe there are very many 24-tablers on Sky, for example).

On a site like Stars, with millions of hand histories per day, I believe that it's less likely that the site will spot the collusion as they will get so many reports that not everything can be investigated properly (eg a bot group all 24 tabling is a lot of tables). Hence why the players of that game will do it themselves by looking at their hand histories.

This is what I mean by hh accessibility being good in a way.
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Hippy80
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« Reply #129 on: October 25, 2014, 11:44:20 PM »

I'm not sure conflating HuDs and Sharky/Cartels is going to help anyone.

They are two very different issues in my mind, and I don;t think trying t cover everything off in 1 thread is going to work.
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tikay
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« Reply #130 on: October 25, 2014, 11:46:30 PM »

I'm not sure conflating HuDs and Sharky/Cartels is going to help anyone.

They are two very different issues in my mind, and I don;t think trying t cover everything off in 1 thread is going to work.

Agreed, they are separate matters, but in true blonde style, some range merging arose. .
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« Reply #131 on: October 25, 2014, 11:55:06 PM »

We've come a long way from the 'Sunday Lunch', and 'Actionjack's Who's the Daddy?'

Cheesy
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« Reply #132 on: October 26, 2014, 12:28:32 AM »

We've come a long way from the 'Sunday Lunch', and 'Actionjack's Who's the Daddy?'

Cheesy

But who is the daddy?
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« Reply #133 on: October 26, 2014, 12:39:11 AM »

We've come a long way from the 'Sunday Lunch', and 'Actionjack's Who's the Daddy?'

Cheesy

But who is the daddy?

I was twice I think, so that just goes to how fked it all was back then  Cheesy
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« Reply #134 on: October 26, 2014, 12:45:56 AM »

We've come a long way from the 'Sunday Lunch', and 'Actionjack's Who's the Daddy?'

Cheesy

Weren't you multi accounting back then mickey 
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