Dear Pleno.......Best Regards, Richard

[Marky147]

We've come a long way from the 'Sunday Lunch', and 'Actionjack's Who's the Daddy?'

Weren't you multi accounting back then mickey  

Who wasn't

Best thing was you were allowed to play other people's accounts on there...

[Woodsey]

We've come a long way from the 'Sunday Lunch', and 'Actionjack's Who's the Daddy?'

Weren't you multi accounting back then mickey  

Who wasn't

Best thing was you were allowed to play other people's accounts on there...

I lost count of the number of accounts I had with will hills, betfair etc 

[SuuPRlim]

People just need to understand 2 things.

If you wanna play HU poker on the Internet, you're playing a pro, no questions. Stop acting like that means you'll snap do your money, it just means your prolly a dog as a rec player. Still very good chance of winning and individual session. This is the same for me, if I wanna wait for 8 hours I can get Rec action, if I decide i want to play some HU today then without all the patience in the world I'm playing vs pros. I don't care either!

HUDs are not built to crush amateur players, they are reg vs reg tools - thinking that you, as a recreational player, are at a disadvantage because "all the pros have HUDs" and you don't is just wasting your own time, until you have 10,000 hands stored on people it's not worth thinking about.

Just relax and enjoy playing, it's not the case that every pro is sat at home inventing software to make sure you only have a 3% chance of winning every time you play.

[tikay]

People just need to understand 2 things.

If you wanna play HU poker on the Internet, you're playing a pro, no questions. Stop acting like that means you'll snap do your money, it just means your prolly a dog as a rec player. Still very good chance of winning and individual session. This is the same for me, if I wanna wait for 8 hours I can get Rec action, if I decide i want to play some HU today then without all the patience in the world I'm playing vs pros. I don't care either!

HUDs are not built to crush amateur players, they are reg vs reg tools - thinking that you, as a recreational player, are at a disadvantage because "all the pros have HUDs" and you don't is just wasting your own time, until you have 10,000 hands stored on people it's not worth thinking about.

Just relax and enjoy playing, it's not the case that every pro is sat at home inventing software to make sure you only have a 3% chance of winning every time you play.

You miss the point there though Dave, even though you may well be correct. Recreational players think, & are utterly convinced, that they may not be playing on a level playing field.

That is their perception. Fine words from you & me won't ever change that.

I don't want us to go off-topic here, but, by volume, 95% or so of poker players are recreational. I don't know what the exact numbers are, but I'd bet very good money that, collectively, they spend far more in rake than the Pros. I'm not into Pro-bashing, not at all, but the game is more about recreationals. (I'm utterly astonished that 'Stars listened to advice on 2+2).

Recreationals neither need nor want third party software. Slowly, more & more sites are reailsing this & are starting to gain market share by banning them. Many here may not like that, but it's a fact, & one which is meaning those sites are attracting more players, who are staying longer.

I suspect that very few people who have read this thread would object if all third-party software were banned. If they don't think so after reading this thread, they never will!  

Well over 100 types of third party software are permissable on PokerStars. Another 100 or more have been banned.  

I guess it's all about what 'Stars decide.

[SuuPRlim]

You're absolutely right Tikay.

I just wish a) the software would be banned (would certainly benefit the best pros if you banned any type of software) or (more realistically) b) people stopped talking about it.

It sounds so much worse than it is, sky do a very good job catering to the aide of rec players IMO.

It just send such the wrong impression this type of stuff.

[tikay]

Dan, I don't fully understand how it all works - I only heard of the seating script and cartel system today! So can I ask you a question?

Is it the case that the cartel system actually might make things slightly better for a recreational player? Because it keeps a lot of the weaker bum-hunting regs (who would beat up the recs) out of the games, and so there is a better reg/rec balance. Which means there is at least a TINY chance that a rec may occasionally get to sit with another rec. Or have I misunderstood?

One thing I am pretty sure I have understood correctly is that it is the seating scripts that are causing the problem, not the cartel system. Seating scripts, HUDs and other such things are very bad for the long-term health of poker. It would be better if they had never been created, and it would be better if they were banned. But Stars are not going to do that are they?

They are the work of the devil, imo.

By chance, a thread about Seating Scripts started on 2+2 two days ago, & is trundling along merrily.....


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/pokerstars-showing-no-effort-banning-regulating-seating-scripts-terrible-management-1483834/

Incidentally, it took exactly one post for this to appear....


SScripters should be beaten to death with baseballs bats and then set on fire...

A tad extreme, methinks.

[tikay]

You're absolutely right Tikay.

I just wish a) the software would be banned (would certainly benefit the best pros if you banned any type of software) or (more realistically) b) people stopped talking about it.

It sounds so much worse than it is, sky do a very good job catering to the aide of rec players IMO.

It just send such the wrong impression this type of stuff.

Yes.

I feel sort of embarrassed to be part of the poker world at times when I see all this stuff. Fortunately, it does not affect me personally, as I play small-ball, within my means, & with my own money, not stakers money. 

Cartels, organised groups, seating scripts, surely poker was not designed to go down that road?   

[SuuPRlim]

Off topic again, but seating scripts really are the absolute low of the low.

Basically allows people to burgle a living off poker without the required skills.

[tikay]

Off topic again, but seating scripts really are the absolute low of the low.
Basically allows people to burgle a living off poker without the required skills.

Do 'Stars knowingly allow them?

[cambridgealex]

Tikay, I think stars listen to 2p2 about hu sngs because a large majority of the player pool are pros who post on 2p2. That's not the case in other forms of the game as you say, quite the opposite. But in this form of the game (at least at the $30+ level) it's mainly pros all fighting over a few recs.

[tikay]

Tikay, I think stars listen to 2p2 about hu sngs because a large majority of the player pool are pros who post on 2p2. That's not the case in other forms of the game as you say, quite the opposite. But in this form of the game (at least at the $30+ level) it's mainly pros all fighting over a few recs.

Aah yes, that makes sense Alex.

It just sort of made me think that the average 2+2 Poster is not exactly your average recreational player, & if 'Stars were listening to those guys, they would not be getting a balanced view.

For the record, I think 'Stars are, generally, awesome, & nothing that has arisen lately, inccluding the Deposit thing, has made me change that view. I do think, though, that if they had their time again, & could wind the clock back, they may have taken a different line with 3rd party software, especially stuff like Seating Scripts.

Honestly, if these Seating Scripts stories were real, I'd never play on 'Stars again, for all that I admire the site immensely.

[Rexas]

Tikay, I kinda think from a recreational point of view it still is a level playing feel. Part of the definition of a rec is that they don't play loads, and certainly on zoom its basically impossible to have enough of a sample on the majority of recs to make proper HUD reads. You can make some basic ones, but these are exactly the same "reads" that I would have after half an hour of playing with them live. Vs the regs however, with 10k + hands on them and a HUD set up which you actually know how to use, you can make ridiculously profitable decisions based on reads you would just not have live.

I guess what I'm saying is you should all play zoom

[AlunB]

People just need to understand 2 things.

If you wanna play HU poker on the Internet, you're playing a pro, no questions. Stop acting like that means you'll snap do your money, it just means your prolly a dog as a rec player. Still very good chance of winning and individual session. This is the same for me, if I wanna wait for 8 hours I can get Rec action, if I decide i want to play some HU today then without all the patience in the world I'm playing vs pros. I don't care either!

HUDs are not built to crush amateur players, they are reg vs reg tools - thinking that you, as a recreational player, are at a disadvantage because "all the pros have HUDs" and you don't is just wasting your own time, until you have 10,000 hands stored on people it's not worth thinking about.

Just relax and enjoy playing, it's not the case that every pro is sat at home inventing software to make sure you only have a 3% chance of winning every time you play.

Pros also need to understand two things

1) People who play for fun don't want to play only against pros, or even mostly against pros. Some people don't want to play against them at all. I would personally be much happier (as a rec) to know I was never playing a pro when I donk off my hard earned online. Saying this is the reality is fine, but it's a reality that will undoubtedly put off a lot of people from playing once they come to understand it. As a rec I don't want to play in a game where I definitely positively won't win in the long term. I might as well just play roulette.

2) It's hard enough persuading most people the RNG isn't rigged so good luck telling them about the subtleties of tracking software. And even if it's just a tiny non-meaningful advantage you gain by using it against a rec it's still a small advantage. It's not a level playing field. It's not a huge advantage, but it can't be a hindrance. Whatever, either way they aren't good for the image of the game. But they won't get banned because volume would drop off a cliff.

I think your earlier point was very well made though. Some of the anti pro sentiment stems from jealousy without doubt.

[Steve Swift]

I am and out and out Rec and will always be classed as such, but I won't be mugged off if the game isn't fair I will l stop playing/look else where.

Isn't one of the big name the one who wouldn't give interviews after the one drop, I assumed he had some scruples.

[PaintingByNumbers]

You're absolutely right Tikay.

I just wish a) the software would be banned (would certainly benefit the best pros if you banned any type of software) or (more realistically) b) people stopped talking about it.

It sounds so much worse than it is, sky do a very good job catering to the aide of rec players IMO.

It just send such the wrong impression this type of stuff.

Yes.

I feel sort of embarrassed to be part of the poker world at times when I see all this stuff. Fortunately, it does not affect me personally, as I play small-ball, within my means, & with my own money, not stakers money. 

Cartels, organised groups, seating scripts, surely poker was not designed to go down that road?   

I imagine these have always existed.

Poker has reached its present state through evolution rather than design.