A hand I lost (but I think I've learnt...)

[Phil]

Ok, this comes from a KK vs Ax conversation I had ages ago with Adam M... and today was probably the first time I got to use it. Is this an example of me learning, or does everyone get away with this as cheaply as I did... and would you call off the value bet at the end?

PokerStars Game #3782350454: Tournament #18783514, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2006/01/28 - 10:35:43 (ET)
Table '18783514 15' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: carl683 (2095 in chips)
Seat 2: MEP79 (1505 in chips)
Seat 3: Perk029 (4315 in chips)
Seat 4: mrcoffee182 (4371 in chips)
Seat 5: Naujan124 (1220 in chips)
Seat 6: LadyfromVirg (5560 in chips)
Seat 8: Vivven (4385 in chips)
Seat 9: PATNITROF (1680 in chips)
LadyfromVirg: posts small blind 50
Vivven: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mrcoffee182 [ ]
PATNITROF: folds
carl683: folds
MEP79: folds
Perk029: folds
mrcoffee182: raises 200 to 300
Naujan124: folds
LadyfromVirg: folds
Vivven: raises 400 to 700
mrcoffee182: calls 400
*** FLOP *** [ Ah]
Vivven: checks
mrcoffee182: checks
*** TURN *** [ Ah] []
Vivven: checks
mrcoffee182: checks
*** RIVER *** [ Ah ] []
Vivven: bets 300
mrcoffee182: calls 300
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Vivven: shows [ As] (a full house, Aces full of Queens)
mrcoffee182: shows [ ] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
Vivven collected 2050 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2050 | Rake 0
Board [ Ah ]
Seat 1: carl683 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: MEP79 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Perk029 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: mrcoffee182 showed [ ] and lost with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 5: Naujan124 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: LadyfromVirg (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: Vivven (big blind) showed [ As] and won (2050) with a full house, Aces full of Queens
Seat 9: PATNITROF folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[snoopy1239]

I'd bet that flop to see if he has the ace or not.

Also, I'm not sure you can get away from the value bet. Maybe the queen could scare you off a little bit, but the bet is too small. He may think that his KK, JJ, TT, 99, etc is good. He may have missed enitely with suited connectors and is attempting the steal.

I think it's more a case of him playing the hand badly. I really think he'd be better off betting the turn.

[thetank]

Far too passively played KK IMO.

If you lost this little on AA vs KK you ain't played it right.

[I KNOW IT]

Far too passively played KK IMO.

If you lost this little on AA vs KK you ain't played it right.

Ridiculous quote.
You trying to say he needs to lose a lot to say hes played KKvs AA right?

When he re raises you hes more likely holding AA,KK (doubtful as you have KK)QQ or AK.
That flop is probably as worse as you could hope for with an A & Q there.
He could have played it a little stronger ,but you were unlikely to get too busy with him (I hope) on that flop. The only hand you could possibly be beating on the end is JJ or 10 10.

I wonder what would have happened if it was a rag flop?

[Phil]

I think I lose all my money on a J high flop or lower.

[bundle]

I think you got out of it very cheap...I would have done the lot Pre-Flop

[Longy]

I think this is interesting conversation and well played Phil. Ok we have kings it is only losing to one hand aces, we are not putting our opponent on that hand but if he is a good player his range to re raise a solid player (which phil is) is quite small.
So his range is AA-JJ and AQ,AK imo. So if we flat call the raise we can get away from half the opponents hand if the ace flops, but also stack him if he has qq or jj on a baby flop as he doesn't read us for kings cos we didn't 3 bet it pre flop. Also AQ pays us on a q high flop.  You are going to do your money either way if you push and he has aces or hits a set with qq or jj but we are letting ourselves get away from the hand when we are beaten by the other hands.

Its a case of disguising the strength of your hand while knowing roughly what the opponent has. Therefore giving us an edge on the flop. Flat calling with aces is also a poweful move in this situation.

[thetank]

What I mean is he should have probably bet the flop, and if not definately should have bet the turn.

It looks great now we know the other guy had a set of Aces. What about the times he has a flush draw, lower pair and beats him with the free cards?

EDIT - Not really worried about free cards, bit of a donk post by me, see below.

[Phil]

The thing is tank, as Longy mentioned, the range of hands this guy could have possibly had rules out flush/straight draws IMO. Other than JJ I didn't think there was any hand I was beating. Maybe I'm lucky he hit the flop so hard so that he didn't bet out at me or maybe I would have reacted different.

[thetank]

Fair point.
I still think it's more than possible for him to have TT or JJ (or even a smaller pair) and a bet of half the pot, or thereabouts, on the flop would let you know exactly where you are.

He'd be likely put you on AK, AQ and let pkt 10's or J's go.
If you check the flop, it's not so much the free cards I'm worried about, it's that your KK might be best and what to do if he bets the turn.

Can't really fault you that much though, I'd be likely to be on the rail having bundled it in pre-flop.

I think you got out of it very cheap...I would have done the lot Pre-Flop

No pun intended

I would have definately called the value bet of just 300 on the end if it had gone check check check check up to that point. It screams of milking but the price is just too cheap to check and see.

[Royal Flush]

Far too passively played KK IMO.

If you lost this little on AA vs KK you ain't played it right.

I agree. Same as set vs set, if you are behing you SHOULD do your whole stack.

[Phil]

So to play KK vs AA correctly, in your opinion, I should lose all my chips?

[thetank]

If you know you're up against AA then no.

However, most of the time, poker is played with your opponents cards face down.

[I KNOW IT]

Good players rarely lose their whole stack with just one pair, including AA

[RyG]

Tend to agree with I KNOW IT on this one. Theres no need to lose any more money after the flop than perhaps either calling a small bet on the river, or betting the turn (if called, let it go).