Bank rolling - someone who wants to turn pro

[mikeymike]

Hi all

Someone i know not related to this forum has asked me if i am interested in bank rolling him so he can go pro. He wants to play cash and mtts. Mostly live not online.

My issue is not that of trusting the person it is that the figure that i think he needs to get started with and the figure he thinks he needs to get started are miles apart.

I am taking into account, day to day living expenses, travel cost and basically making sure that he can meet his rent and household bills for at least six months plus a sum for cash play and a sum for mtt.

To me taking this pressure out of the situation should let him concentrate on his game. After all this will be a new experience for him as he will be giving up his regular job.

My figure is 5 times higher than his and my view is that if he starts off with the minimum he is not necessarily giving him self the best shot. So i would rather decline.

Any thoughts 

PS: This is not a financial decision on my part it is a moral decision on whats best for him.

Cheers

[Simon Galloway]

The figure will undoubtedly be even larger than you have in mind too. A player will swing plenty, bit that doesn't mean you have to give them the full amount of potential swings up front, you can provide a sensible roll to cover at least as many sessions as they could play before you would be able to get more funds to them.
that aside, this is massively unlikely to be successful, but as money doesn't seem to be the driver, you may already be ok with that.

[mikeymike]

The figure will undoubtedly be even larger than you have in mind too. A player will swing plenty, bit that doesn't mean you have to give them the full amount of potential swings up front, you can provide a sensible roll to cover at least as many sessions as they could play before you would be able to get more funds to them.
that aside, this is massively unlikely to be successful, but as money doesn't seem to be the driver, you may already be ok with that.

Can you give me a reason for saying >this is massively unlikely to be successful>

[Simon Galloway]

Honestly I could give you about 50 reasons. And I'm not trying to be facetious, I could write a book on different ways that this can go wrong. but I don't know the player, his skill level, his expenses, his intended schedule, so of course it could work. But very few players are able to make it pay grinding live events, if he hasn't already been successful at this as sole source of income, then they will be a big statistical dog to succeed. meanwhile if others chip in that it is likely to succeed, then I'll give examples of how and why it can go wrong. My expectation is that just about everyone would take the under here...

[rfgqqabc]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse.  


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

[Marky147]

Three stacks of high society, imo...

[UgotNuts]

I thought I would chip in with some of my thoughts on this.  I have been playing around with the idea of going pro for a number of years, with the intention to play mainly live MTT with the option of cash games (normally a deep 1/2 game)if I bust out of the comp. I looked to set aside living costs af around 10-15k to cover household bills, food, clothes, Ect, and then looked to have a roll of around 10k. I would mainly be looking to play the daily comps at my local (to keep traveling costs to a min and the average players are soft) ranging form 30 quid to 70 quid and throw in the odd Dtd monthly and monthly special at the local would make up my schedule to begin with, and review accordingly In 6-12 months time. I would also take shots at the higher buy ins if I could sat into them or sell action.

Now most poker players are losing ones, and need there normal income to keep them a float. I find constancy  is the key to playing for a living, and you should only look to do it once you a earning more money playing in your spare  time than your 9-5, over a a good period of time. When it comes to having to borrow in order to start up, it would suggest that your not yet a winning enough money playing the game. On top of that you now need to make enough money to repay your backer, increase/maintain your bankroll and, set aside cash for your next household bills.

I've ranted on far too much than what I intended, but in sum it all up I'm an optimised, it can be done, but money with relisitic expectations and solid bankroll management. And to answer your question it probally is the higher figure that is required and your deffinatly thinking about the bigger picture about their finance. As long as your confident he is doing this for the right reasons and has the ability to achieve their goals then go for it.

In a side note how much would he like to make an hour on the cash games?

[UgotNuts]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse.  


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

why would you have to play 1k buy ins to play for a living? It all depends on how much money you require to make a living rather than just trying to win a small to medium house.

[rfgqqabc]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse.  


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

why would you have to play 1k buy ins to play for a living? It all depends on how much money you require to make a living rather than just trying to win a small to medium house.

GPS in Birmingham. £20 petrol, £20 food (seems low, 2x meal 1x brekkie) £50 hotel £90 in expenses. 50% roi on 440 = 220 so your ev is £130 over roughly 6 hours playing time for an hourly of £20 but when you include getting to and from the venue being free for all day one and day two etc your hourly is just a pittance and your variance is insane.

If your ABI is £50 and your roi is 100% you need an average playing time of ~5 hours to be worthwhile and no expenses at all which just isn't possible.

[pokerplayingfarmer]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse.  


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

why would you have to play 1k buy ins to play for a living? It all depends on how much money you require to make a living rather than just trying to win a small to medium house.

GPS in Birmingham. £20 petrol, £20 food (seems low, 2x meal 1x brekkie) £50 hotel £90 in expenses. 50% roi on 440 = 220 so your ev is £130 over roughly 6 hours playing time for an hourly of £20 but when you include getting to and from the venue being free for all day one and day two etc your hourly is just a pittance and your variance is insane.

If your ABI is £50 and your roi is 100% you need an average playing time of ~5 hours to be worthwhile and no expenses at all which just isn't possible.

I was going to post some similar figures, I think pleno covered this in his diary maybe? Somewhere anyway.  The best players in the world ain't gonna have a long term roi of over 50% in mtts, and I think that's optimistic.  This makes the 1 day £50ers just impossible to play for a living. 

[UgotNuts]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse.  


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

why would you have to play 1k buy ins to play for a living? It all depends on how much money you require to make a living rather than just trying to win a small to medium house.

GPS in Birmingham. £20 petrol, £20 food (seems low, 2x meal 1x brekkie) £50 hotel £90 in expenses. 50% roi on 440 = 220 so your ev is £130 over roughly 6 hours playing time for an hourly of £20 but when you include getting to and from the venue being free for all day one and day two etc your hourly is just a pittance and your variance is insane.

If your ABI is £50 and your roi is 100% you need an average playing time of ~5 hours to be worthwhile and no expenses at all which just isn't possible.

I understand what you are saying, and keeping expenses to a min to maximize your ROI. But it also depends on other factors, such as the time period/number of tournaments which you take into account. You cant just pluck a figure of 50% ROI as an average figure. An average prize pool for the an ABI of £50 will normally be around the 5K mark with about 1600 up top, you could potentially win 31 times your buy in for a much higher ROI of 50, and depending on your skill level finish in the top 3 positions about 1/5 of the time. A know a few people who achieve this type of return in local comps in such as Luton G casino.

Having an average hour rate of £20 quid playing 40 hours a week 48 weeks of the year, your making 800 quid a week, £41,600 a year tax free......   

[arbboy]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse.  


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

why would you have to play 1k buy ins to play for a living? It all depends on how much money you require to make a living rather than just trying to win a small to medium house.

GPS in Birmingham. £20 petrol, £20 food (seems low, 2x meal 1x brekkie) £50 hotel £90 in expenses. 50% roi on 440 = 220 so your ev is £130 over roughly 6 hours playing time for an hourly of £20 but when you include getting to and from the venue being free for all day one and day two etc your hourly is just a pittance and your variance is insane.

If your ABI is £50 and your roi is 100% you need an average playing time of ~5 hours to be worthwhile and no expenses at all which just isn't possible.

I understand what you are saying, and keeping expenses to a min to maximize your ROI. But it also depends on other factors, such as the time period/number of tournaments which you take into account. You cant just pluck a figure of 50% ROI as an average figure. An average prize pool for the an ABI of £50 will normally be around the 5K mark with about 1600 up top, you could potentially win 31 times your buy in for a much higher ROI of 50, and depending on your skill level finish in the top 3 positions about 1/5 of the time. A know a few people who achieve this type of return in local comps in such as Luton G casino.

Having an average hour rate of £20 quid playing 40 hours a week 48 weeks of the year, your making 800 quid a week, £41,600 a year tax free......    

20% of the time you think you will finish in the top 3 in a 100 runner 1 day live turbo donkfest?  Are you serious?  You talk of plucking figures out of the air where do you get this 20% figure from and the £20 average hourly rate (this was mentioned by the previous poster on a £440 buy in comp where said player has a 50% roi in these types of games)?  Have you factored in rake for these type of comps which will be 10% min more likely 15-20% on the buy in.  Expenses getting to and from the venue, travel time getting to and from the venue?  A weekly or twice weekly tip for the dealers as you plan to finish top 3 at least once a week?

[StuartHopkin]

and depending on your skill level finish in the top 3 positions about 1/5 of the time

I assume this is dependent on a minimal skill level of 'unbelievably amazing'?

[UgotNuts]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse.  


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

why would you have to play 1k buy ins to play for a living? It all depends on how much money you require to make a living rather than just trying to win a small to medium house.

GPS in Birmingham. £20 petrol, £20 food (seems low, 2x meal 1x brekkie) £50 hotel £90 in expenses. 50% roi on 440 = 220 so your ev is £130 over roughly 6 hours playing time for an hourly of £20 but when you include getting to and from the venue being free for all day one and day two etc your hourly is just a pittance and your variance is insane.

If your ABI is £50 and your roi is 100% you need an average playing time of ~5 hours to be worthwhile and no expenses at all which just isn't possible.

I understand what you are saying, and keeping expenses to a min to maximize your ROI. But it also depends on other factors, such as the time period/number of tournaments which you take into account. You cant just pluck a figure of 50% ROI as an average figure. An average prize pool for the an ABI of £50 will normally be around the 5K mark with about 1600 up top, you could potentially win 31 times your buy in for a much higher ROI of 50, and depending on your skill level finish in the top 3 positions about 1/5 of the time. A know a few people who achieve this type of return in local comps in such as Luton G casino.

Having an average hour rate of £20 quid playing 40 hours a week 48 weeks of the year, your making 800 quid a week, £41,600 a year tax free......    

20% of the time you think you will finish in the top 3 in a 100 runner 1 day live turbo donkfest?  Are you serious?  You talk of plucking figures out of the air where do you get this 20% figure from and the £20 average hourly rate (this was mentioned by the previous poster on a £440 buy in comp where said player has a 50% roi in these types of games)?  Have you factored in rake for these type of comps which will be 10% min more likely 15-20% on the buy in.  Expenses getting to and from the venue, travel time getting to and from the venue?  A weekly or twice weekly tip for the dealers as you plan to finish top 3 at least once a week?

I trying to think of something constructive to say in response..... If you cant final table 20% of the time (top 3 as stated above) then you shouldn't be considering being a MTT Pro. We are not talking about a "Fun"player" who will final table once in a blue moon.

And yes an Average hourly rate of £20 would indeed include expenses.

[tikay]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse. 


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

why would you have to play 1k buy ins to play for a living? It all depends on how much money you require to make a living rather than just trying to win a small to medium house.

GPS in Birmingham. £20 petrol, £20 food (seems low, 2x meal 1x brekkie) £50 hotel £90 in expenses. 50% roi on 440 = 220 so your ev is £130 over roughly 6 hours playing time for an hourly of £20 but when you include getting to and from the venue being free for all day one and day two etc your hourly is just a pittance and your variance is insane.

If your ABI is £50 and your roi is 100% you need an average playing time of ~5 hours to be worthwhile and no expenses at all which just isn't possible.

I understand what you are saying, and keeping expenses to a min to maximize your ROI. But it also depends on other factors, such as the time period/number of tournaments which you take into account. You cant just pluck a figure of 50% ROI as an average figure. An average prize pool for the an ABI of £50 will normally be around the 5K mark with about 1600 up top, you could potentially win 31 times your buy in for a much higher ROI of 50, and depending on your skill level finish in the top 3 positions about 1/5 of the time. A know a few people who achieve this type of return in local comps in such as Luton G casino.

Having an average hour rate of £20 quid playing 40 hours a week 48 weeks of the year, your making 800 quid a week, £41,600 a year tax free......   

20% of the time you think you will finish in the top 3 in a 100 runner 1 day live turbo donkfest?  Are you serious?  You talk of plucking figures out of the air where do you get this 20% figure from and the £20 average hourly rate (this was mentioned by the previous poster on a £440 buy in comp where said player has a 50% roi in these types of games)?  Have you factored in rake for these type of comps which will be 10% min more likely 15-20% on the buy in.  Expenses getting to and from the venue, travel time getting to and from the venue?  A weekly or twice weekly tip for the dealers as you plan to finish top 3 at least once a week?

I trying to think of something constructive to say in response..... If you cant final table 20% of the time (top 3 as stated above) then you shouldn't be considering being a MTT Pro. We are not talking about a "Fun"player" who will final table once in a blue moon.

And yes an Average hourly rate of £20 would indeed include expenses.

I'm confused by that - there is a whole lot of difference between "final table" & "top 3".

Final tabling in 100 runner comps 20% of the time (assuming 10 player Final) is achievable.

Top 3 20% of the time, over any reasonable sample size, is impossible, no matter how "soft" the fields may be considered.

Do you mean "20% of the times they final they will make top 3"? That would be 4 MTT's per 100 played. They would not cover the buy-ins for the 100 MTT's at that rate.

It's quite a struggle to think of more than a handful of players who could make a living at "Live" MTT's.

I would agree with you that "if you can't make top 3 20% of the time, you should not be considering earning a living as a (Live) MTT Pro" because I don't know of any player who could achieve that over a sensible sample size.