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Author Topic: "Germanwings" A320 crashes in France  (Read 12689 times)
tikay
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« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2015, 11:18:39 AM »

If it does turn out to be suicide, is this better or worse for the industry than mechanical failure as a cause?

Better, but get your drift.

Easier to solve if is is suicide than a problem with the aircraft. You can't stop suicide, of course, but access to the cockpit is sortable. 

They key to that is that since 9/11, the cockpit doors have to be locked at all times. Apparently, the cabin crew have a code with which they can unlock it, so that's a mystery as to why they never, or were unable to.

I read somewhere that there can be a bolt too.  Some airlines have a two in the cockpit rule.

There have been a few suicides over the years, allegedly.

They ruled out terrorism early, as usual, but it could be the indirect cause.  Or the "war on terror" is, depending where your sympathy's lie.






I'm 99% certain the door does not have a bolt.

The whole system revolves around being able to open it in an emergency. Which clearly failed this time, if the story is true.


Wouldn't being able to open it from the outside in an emergency defeat it's intended purpose though? i.e. terrorist forces someone on the outside to open it?

To a degree, yes, but they 100% DO have an system whereby Cabin Crew CAN open it in an emergency. Clearly not foolproof, but they have to have it, & they do, it's been regularly discussed on the PPRuNe thread, though you have to wade through 56 pages of techie talk to find it. 



http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558654-airbus-a320-crashed-southern-france.html


PS - It is currently reported that Luthansa (the parent company of germanwings) categorically deny the "locked cabin door" theory, see Page 56 of that thread.
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« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2015, 11:21:15 AM »

If it does turn out to be suicide, is this better or worse for the industry than mechanical failure as a cause?

its better, though no less palatable for the families of the lost ones

you can sort out access/never leaving a single person alone in the cockpit etc

mechanical failures can ground fleets and affect the industry more imo

I think if it does turn out to be suicide, it is unquestionably far far worse for the families.

The senselessness and selfishness of a pilot killing himself in a way that kills 150 innocent people would be nearly impossible to reconcile in your mind.

I can even understand the misguided logic of an ISIS suicide bomber.

But never a pilot doing this.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 11:37:11 AM by The Camel » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2015, 11:29:18 AM »

Surely, surely, surely nobody would commit suicide and decide to take 150 other people with them.  I am struggling to come up with a more selfish action.  I wouldn't be able to get my head round it.
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« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2015, 11:40:06 AM »

Surely, surely, surely nobody would commit suicide and decide to take 150 other people with them.  I am struggling to come up with a more selfish action.  I wouldn't be able to get my head round it.

People do fucked up things sometimes.

I am always completely horrified when a story comes out about a father killing his children and then himself as revenge for his exwife leaving him.

But I am struggling to think of a worse case than a pilot killing his passengers.
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« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2015, 12:01:29 PM »

Surely, surely, surely nobody would commit suicide and decide to take 150 other people with them.  I am struggling to come up with a more selfish action.  I wouldn't be able to get my head round it.

It is 99% certain that pilot suicide was the cause of the Malaysian Airlines MH370 disaster, the one that has never (yet) been found, more than a year on. It disappeared, never to be seen again, on March 7th 2014. Everything points to pilot suicide.
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« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2015, 12:05:03 PM »

If it turns out the pilot's motive was suicide, then he should have the right to end his own life.  But if that is the case, he's also guilty of the murder of 150 innocent people.  As Gramps said, there's a perverse logic to suicide bombers and those that hijacked the planes on 9/11, but it'd be baffling for someone who just wants to end his own life murdering 150 people as collateral damage.

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« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2015, 12:13:17 PM »

If it turns out the pilot's motive was suicide, then he should have the right to end his own life.  But if that is the case, he's also guilty of the murder of 150 innocent people.  As Gramps said, there's a perverse logic to suicide bombers and those that hijacked the planes on 9/11, but it'd be baffling for someone who just wants to end his own life murdering 150 people as collateral damage.



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« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 12:29:07 PM by The Camel » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2015, 12:18:37 PM »

If it turns out the pilot's motive was suicide, then he should have the right to end his own life.  But if that is the case, he's also guilty of the murder of 150 innocent people.  As Gramps said, there's a perverse logic to suicide bombers and those that hijacked the planes on 9/11, but it'd be baffling for someone who just wants to end his own life murdering 150 people as collateral damage.



I've been called a lot of things in my time, but "Gramps" is a new and unfotunate one Sad

It won't be long now, Keith.
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« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2015, 12:32:27 PM »

it has been confirmed

Co-pilot refused to open the cockpit door for the pilot on Germanwings plane, prosecutor says

http://www.thelocal.fr/20150326/pilot-locked-out-of-cockpit-before-germanwings-crash

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« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2015, 12:41:43 PM »

Apparently there is an emergency code to get into the cockpit if the pilot becomes incapacitated.

But if he can over ride this and not let anyone else in if he is conscious
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« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2015, 12:44:01 PM »

it has been confirmed

Co-pilot refused to open the cockpit door for the pilot on Germanwings plane, prosecutor says

http://www.thelocal.fr/20150326/pilot-locked-out-of-cockpit-before-germanwings-crash



Ghastly news.

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« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2015, 12:45:13 PM »



From PPRuNE

They have the last 30 minutes of the flight on the CVR.
 Conversation between pilots was normal - "cheerful"
 After about 20 minutes, captain runs through landing procedure.
 Co-pilot's responses to this are described as "laconic"

The co-pilot was left alone in the cockpit.
Co-pilot heard operating FMS to select altitude - can only be a deliberate act.
 Hear captain using the interphone to request access to cockpit.
 No response.
 Banged on door.
 Sound of breathing inside cockpit (continues until the impact).
 Marseille ATC calls heard - no response from co-pilot.
 
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« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2015, 12:47:24 PM »

I was reading elsewhere that most airlines have a rule that there must be 2 people in the cockpit at all times.

But Lufthansa does not have this rule.
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« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2015, 12:57:22 PM »

I was reading elsewhere that most airlines have a rule that there must be 2 people in the cockpit at all times.

But Lufthansa does not have this rule.

I'm not sure that's true, Keith.

Most short haul flights only have 2 crew in the cockpit, but short haul can be long enough to need a wee, or even a number two on occasion. It's unthinkable they would not able to attend to an urgent call of nature, & it'd actually be dangerous to deny them that, as it'd affect their concentration.
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« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2015, 01:12:02 PM »

I was reading elsewhere that most airlines have a rule that there must be 2 people in the cockpit at all times.

But Lufthansa does not have this rule.

I'm not sure that's true, Keith.

Most short haul flights only have 2 crew in the cockpit, but short haul can be long enough to need a wee, or even a number two on occasion. It's unthinkable they would not able to attend to an urgent call of nature, & it'd actually be dangerous to deny them that, as it'd affect their concentration.

Maybe they were getting longhaul and shorthaul rules confused.
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