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Author Topic: Would dropping the rake in £1k+ events influence numbers?  (Read 8755 times)
EvilPie
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« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2015, 04:57:39 PM »

Let's get one thing straight from the outset because so many people seem to forget this. These places are not there for our poker playing pleasure, they're businesses plain and simple and if they fail to make a profit they will disappear.

The costs of running a cardroom will have increased dramatically over the years so why wouldn't we expect the rake to increase?

If we take a nice £100 + £10 comp running ten years ago that nobody would have complained about:

Assume a nice steady 3% inflation over ten years and that £10 rake now needs to be £13.50 to cover the same costs. Unfortunately £100 + £10.30 in year one through to £100 + £13.50 would cause uproar in the poker community so they leave it at £100 + £10 for as long as they possibly can.

There's always been the problem that some comps will subsidise others. As far as costs are concerned a £10 + £1 comp will lose a small fortune, a £1000 + £100 will make a small fortune and at a guess a £200 + £20 will about break even. A place like DTD gets around this a little bit by having the £5 minimum rake.

If you look at a typical good night at DTD. 150 runners paying £5 each so approximately £750 going in to the DTD coffers..... You think that covers the cost of opening the doors for the 8 hours the comp runs for? Of course it doesn't but they still do it because somewhere down the line there will be a festival, a grand prix or a UKIPT etc. that will subsidise it.

During these festivals I'd imagine that DTD does very well and makes a good profit as long as it hits its guarantees. During the rest of the year it won't fair anywhere near as well.

Every business has to make the most of the good times so that it an ride out the bad times. Festivals are good times so I'm afraid they have to subsidise the bad times.

In direct response to the original question the answer is a resounding NO!!
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EvilPie
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« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2015, 05:03:37 PM »

dropping off £100 completely would be great as a one off, surely? It could be there to experiment, I appreciate that x,y,z card toom has to make money, but perhaps when some of the events are struggling to make the money and dropping tens of thousands that maybe testing the water with dropping the reg fee completely as a one off would maybe see them make the guarantee?

I think someone made a good point about the rake for the £100+£20 though - I think if it wasn't for the decent guarantee they wouldn't make it, so I don't know *shrug*

Away from the big comps I do however see that the local comps that are less than £30 buyin now are minimum £5 rake, there is even £5 rake on £10 tournaments too

Loss leaders in a market place that appears to have zero loyalty are a sure fire way to destroy a business.
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2015, 12:19:25 AM »

Let's get one thing straight from the outset because so many people seem to forget this. These places are not there for our poker playing pleasure, they're businesses plain and simple and if they fail to make a profit they will disappear.

The costs of running a cardroom will have increased dramatically over the years so why wouldn't we expect the rake to increase?

If we take a nice £100 + £10 comp running ten years ago that nobody would have complained about:

Assume a nice steady 3% inflation over ten years and that £10 rake now needs to be £13.50 to cover the same costs. Unfortunately £100 + £10.30 in year one through to £100 + £13.50 would cause uproar in the poker community so they leave it at £100 + £10 for as long as they possibly can.

There's always been the problem that some comps will subsidise others. As far as costs are concerned a £10 + £1 comp will lose a small fortune, a £1000 + £100 will make a small fortune and at a guess a £200 + £20 will about break even. A place like DTD gets around this a little bit by having the £5 minimum rake.

If you look at a typical good night at DTD. 150 runners paying £5 each so approximately £750 going in to the DTD coffers..... You think that covers the cost of opening the doors for the 8 hours the comp runs for? Of course it doesn't but they still do it because somewhere down the line there will be a festival, a grand prix or a UKIPT etc. that will subsidise it.

During these festivals I'd imagine that DTD does very well and makes a good profit as long as it hits its guarantees. During the rest of the year it won't fair anywhere near as well.

Every business has to make the most of the good times so that it an ride out the bad times. Festivals are good times so I'm afraid they have to subsidise the bad times.

In direct response to the original question the answer is a resounding NO!!


Agree with this completely.
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EvilPie
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2015, 01:01:15 AM »


The rake is irrelevant to some, as they never cash, Matt The Hoople being a perfect example.

This is completely true.

£1000 + £100 or £100 + £1000 it really makes no difference.
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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2015, 05:13:44 AM »

Let's get one thing straight from the outset because so many people seem to forget this. These places are not there for our poker playing pleasure, they're businesses plain and simple and if they fail to make a profit they will disappear.

The costs of running a cardroom will have increased dramatically over the years so why wouldn't we expect the rake to increase?

If we take a nice £100 + £10 comp running ten years ago that nobody would have complained about:

Assume a nice steady 3% inflation over ten years and that £10 rake now needs to be £13.50 to cover the same costs. Unfortunately £100 + £10.30 in year one through to £100 + £13.50 would cause uproar in the poker community so they leave it at £100 + £10 for as long as they possibly can.

There's always been the problem that some comps will subsidise others. As far as costs are concerned a £10 + £1 comp will lose a small fortune, a £1000 + £100 will make a small fortune and at a guess a £200 + £20 will about break even. A place like DTD gets around this a little bit by having the £5 minimum rake.

If you look at a typical good night at DTD. 150 runners paying £5 each so approximately £750 going in to the DTD coffers..... You think that covers the cost of opening the doors for the 8 hours the comp runs for? Of course it doesn't but they still do it because somewhere down the line there will be a festival, a grand prix or a UKIPT etc. that will subsidise it.

During these festivals I'd imagine that DTD does very well and makes a good profit as long as it hits its guarantees. During the rest of the year it won't fair anywhere near as well.

Every business has to make the most of the good times so that it an ride out the bad times. Festivals are good times so I'm afraid they have to subsidise the bad times.

In direct response to the original question the answer is a resounding NO!!


Sat costs dwarf the "profit" these make.

 I imagine the cash/casino part of DTD do well and the tournament side horrifically, with online being the real money maker.
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StuartHopkin
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« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2015, 09:07:49 AM »

Let's get one thing straight from the outset because so many people seem to forget this. These places are not there for our poker playing pleasure, they're businesses plain and simple and if they fail to make a profit they will disappear.

The costs of running a cardroom will have increased dramatically over the years so why wouldn't we expect the rake to increase?

If we take a nice £100 + £10 comp running ten years ago that nobody would have complained about:

Assume a nice steady 3% inflation over ten years and that £10 rake now needs to be £13.50 to cover the same costs. Unfortunately £100 + £10.30 in year one through to £100 + £13.50 would cause uproar in the poker community so they leave it at £100 + £10 for as long as they possibly can.

There's always been the problem that some comps will subsidise others. As far as costs are concerned a £10 + £1 comp will lose a small fortune, a £1000 + £100 will make a small fortune and at a guess a £200 + £20 will about break even. A place like DTD gets around this a little bit by having the £5 minimum rake.

If you look at a typical good night at DTD. 150 runners paying £5 each so approximately £750 going in to the DTD coffers..... You think that covers the cost of opening the doors for the 8 hours the comp runs for? Of course it doesn't but they still do it because somewhere down the line there will be a festival, a grand prix or a UKIPT etc. that will subsidise it.

During these festivals I'd imagine that DTD does very well and makes a good profit as long as it hits its guarantees. During the rest of the year it won't fair anywhere near as well.

Every business has to make the most of the good times so that it an ride out the bad times. Festivals are good times so I'm afraid they have to subsidise the bad times.

In direct response to the original question the answer is a resounding NO!!


Sat costs dwarf the "profit" these make.

 I imagine the cash/casino part of DTD do well and the tournament side horrifically, with online being the real money maker.

I don't think they have been making much money online?
Unless I am mistaken the only things that run are satellites and most of those have overlays?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 09:09:54 AM by StuartHopkin » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2015, 09:55:13 AM »

As Tikay said earlier, we are all acceptable of paying higher rake abroad.

I presume it costs the same to run a £100 tourney as a £1000, so maybe a sliding scale to make it more appropriate, especially if the rake is in effect to covers costs?
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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2015, 02:50:30 PM »

Let's get one thing straight from the outset because so many people seem to forget this. These places are not there for our poker playing pleasure, they're businesses plain and simple and if they fail to make a profit they will disappear.

The costs of running a cardroom will have increased dramatically over the years so why wouldn't we expect the rake to increase?

If we take a nice £100 + £10 comp running ten years ago that nobody would have complained about:

Assume a nice steady 3% inflation over ten years and that £10 rake now needs to be £13.50 to cover the same costs. Unfortunately £100 + £10.30 in year one through to £100 + £13.50 would cause uproar in the poker community so they leave it at £100 + £10 for as long as they possibly can.

There's always been the problem that some comps will subsidise others. As far as costs are concerned a £10 + £1 comp will lose a small fortune, a £1000 + £100 will make a small fortune and at a guess a £200 + £20 will about break even. A place like DTD gets around this a little bit by having the £5 minimum rake.

If you look at a typical good night at DTD. 150 runners paying £5 each so approximately £750 going in to the DTD coffers..... You think that covers the cost of opening the doors for the 8 hours the comp runs for? Of course it doesn't but they still do it because somewhere down the line there will be a festival, a grand prix or a UKIPT etc. that will subsidise it.

During these festivals I'd imagine that DTD does very well and makes a good profit as long as it hits its guarantees. During the rest of the year it won't fair anywhere near as well.

Every business has to make the most of the good times so that it an ride out the bad times. Festivals are good times so I'm afraid they have to subsidise the bad times.

In direct response to the original question the answer is a resounding NO!!


The point about inflation is not quite right IMO>

With inflation the buyin should increase at the same rate as the rake.

But there is no reason to increase the % of buy in paid in rake.

In your example it should be £103 + £10.30 after year one etc etc
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« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2015, 02:57:00 PM »

As regards to the OP.

I certainly play GUKPTs more than UKIPTs because I appreciate the fact that Grosvenor keep the rake lower.

Pokerstars take too much out and I absolutely hate the fact they withhold 3% for dealers. This is England not America.

I would and do tip if I make the final table (and I think the dealers have been good - which they always are in Stars events), but taking a % of a mincash is out of line IMO.

Stars makes fortune in juice from online sats and for them to charge more rake than Grosvenor who make a fraction of the money Stars do from sats just proves what great value the GUKPT is.

I'm pretty sure Stars started the EPT and UKIPT events to be live advertising for their online product.

Now they are just another cash cow.
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« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2015, 02:57:23 PM »

Let's get one thing straight from the outset because so many people seem to forget this. These places are not there for our poker playing pleasure, they're businesses plain and simple and if they fail to make a profit they will disappear.

The costs of running a cardroom will have increased dramatically over the years so why wouldn't we expect the rake to increase?

If we take a nice £100 + £10 comp running ten years ago that nobody would have complained about:

Assume a nice steady 3% inflation over ten years and that £10 rake now needs to be £13.50 to cover the same costs. Unfortunately £100 + £10.30 in year one through to £100 + £13.50 would cause uproar in the poker community so they leave it at £100 + £10 for as long as they possibly can.

There's always been the problem that some comps will subsidise others. As far as costs are concerned a £10 + £1 comp will lose a small fortune, a £1000 + £100 will make a small fortune and at a guess a £200 + £20 will about break even. A place like DTD gets around this a little bit by having the £5 minimum rake.

If you look at a typical good night at DTD. 150 runners paying £5 each so approximately £750 going in to the DTD coffers..... You think that covers the cost of opening the doors for the 8 hours the comp runs for? Of course it doesn't but they still do it because somewhere down the line there will be a festival, a grand prix or a UKIPT etc. that will subsidise it.

During these festivals I'd imagine that DTD does very well and makes a good profit as long as it hits its guarantees. During the rest of the year it won't fair anywhere near as well.

Every business has to make the most of the good times so that it an ride out the bad times. Festivals are good times so I'm afraid they have to subsidise the bad times.

In direct response to the original question the answer is a resounding NO!!


The point about inflation is not quite right IMO>

With inflation the buyin should increase at the same rate as the rake.

But there is no reason to increase the % of buy in paid in rake.

In your example it should be £103 + £10.30 after year one etc etc

Indeed - if they don't put up buy ins then effectively 5/10 years down the line you are offering an £80 tournament when you used to offer a £100 tournament (depending on inflation rate).  In theory you should get more runners and higher total rake as the buy in is lower compared to people's salaries.

So you can either do that or increase the whole buy in (and thus rake) by inflation and both should cover any inflation in cardrooms' expenses.  If you just increase the rake by inflation then you are offering a worse deal.
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EvilPie
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« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2015, 04:54:22 PM »


The point about inflation is not quite right IMO>

With inflation the buyin should increase at the same rate as the rake.

But there is no reason to increase the % of buy in paid in rake.

In your example it should be £103 + £10.30 after year one etc etc

Indeed - if they don't put up buy ins then effectively 5/10 years down the line you are offering an £80 tournament when you used to offer a £100 tournament (depending on inflation rate).  In theory you should get more runners and higher total rake as the buy in is lower compared to people's salaries.

So you can either do that or increase the whole buy in (and thus rake) by inflation and both should cover any inflation in cardrooms' expenses.  If you just increase the rake by inflation then you are offering a worse deal.

I know what you're saying but it's the fact that the tournaments combined throughout the year have to cover overall running costs that matters.

Say a club runs the following comps in year one:

50 x £100 + £10
100 x £50 + £5
100 x £25 + £5
4 x £1000 + £100

Assume each one gets 100 runners so total rake is £190k

After 10 years that rake needs to be £256k all other things remaining equal.

So they can either have the following:

50 x £135 + £13.50
100 x £67.50 + £6.75
100 x £33.75 + £6.75
4 x £1350 + £135

Or just leave that lot as they were and have a couple of insane guarantee festivals where everyone has to pay an extra bit of rake twice a year. Bear in mind they aren't forced to play, they can play the others that are on every other week for the usual 10% rake but without the insane guarantees.

So given the fact that the insane guarantee festivals don't upset too many people (as they keep meeting these ridiculous guarantees) which is the most practical?
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« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2015, 05:29:56 PM »

No
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« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2015, 07:16:41 PM »

Is the average price of tourney buyins going up anyway though?  Go back ten years and a £100 comp was a special event, the local comps were £10 - £25.  Now the weekly casino comps are £25-£100 with no one really batting an eyelid untill a buyin gets over the £300 mark.
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« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2015, 09:06:36 AM »

No

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« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2015, 01:13:44 PM »


The point about inflation is not quite right IMO>

With inflation the buyin should increase at the same rate as the rake.

But there is no reason to increase the % of buy in paid in rake.

In your example it should be £103 + £10.30 after year one etc etc

Indeed - if they don't put up buy ins then effectively 5/10 years down the line you are offering an £80 tournament when you used to offer a £100 tournament (depending on inflation rate).  In theory you should get more runners and higher total rake as the buy in is lower compared to people's salaries.

So you can either do that or increase the whole buy in (and thus rake) by inflation and both should cover any inflation in cardrooms' expenses.  If you just increase the rake by inflation then you are offering a worse deal.

I know what you're saying but it's the fact that the tournaments combined throughout the year have to cover overall running costs that matters.

Say a club runs the following comps in year one:

50 x £100 + £10
100 x £50 + £5
100 x £25 + £5
4 x £1000 + £100

Assume each one gets 100 runners so total rake is £190k

After 10 years that rake needs to be £256k all other things remaining equal.

So they can either have the following:

50 x £135 + £13.50
100 x £67.50 + £6.75
100 x £33.75 + £6.75
4 x £1350 + £135

Or just leave that lot as they were and have a couple of insane guarantee festivals where everyone has to pay an extra bit of rake twice a year. Bear in mind they aren't forced to play, they can play the others that are on every other week for the usual 10% rake but without the insane guarantees.

So given the fact that the insane guarantee festivals don't upset too many people (as they keep meeting these ridiculous guarantees) which is the most practical?


And if I'm not mistaken under gaming law rake is treated as all gambling take is treated; the government takes 50%. So a rake total for the house might be 20k in a big tournament, but its actually 10k they will see to cover costs....
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