Mass PLO bot ring-found on stars

[Whollyflush]

Don't think there are any cliffs as yet. suspected up to 25 accounts so far found mainly 200PLO estimated profits $1.4mill according to whoTfru.

Some of the accounts still active as of 9/6/15 and no word from a stars rep so far

links from 2p2:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/153/high-stakes-pl-omaha/massive-bot-ring-pokerstars-how-spot-them-1537778/

Dumbed down NVG link:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip-brought-you-online-poker-report/news-massive-plo-bot-ring-pokerstars-millions-hands-huge-winners-1538509/

[SuuPRlim]

fkn Russains ruin it for everyone.

Only way to win nowadays is to cheat it seems...

[simonnatur]

I found the thread interesting and the $ values won with these bots amazing. Multiple people in the 2+2 thread saying this kills online poker in 10 years, I'ld say closer to 10 months unless the issue is addressed.

[GreekStein]

Why aren't the security and game integrity departments of at least stars good enough to catch these before the players do? They played millions of hands!

I've played against most of the names and they are 100bb'ing and to my recollection they are pretty good. I didn't think a bot would be that sophisticated.

It's more worrying that on other sites they will do very little.

[rfgqqabc]

They have human controllers at least some times. It's really really scary though. Tournaments might be the only safe place left online. Stars have the best support and method/means and couldn't stop this. I dread to think about the other sites

[Whollyflush]

The figure taken from legit players is likely to be in the region of $4million, when you consider they have contributed approx $2.5mill in rake. I wonder if stars plans on redistributing that?

It seems these bots were highly sophisticated in some sort of hole card sharing, which is a bigger deal in PLO than NLHE for card removal. Which goes a long way to explaining why regs thought they were awful but they crushed harder than anyone.

Naturally this lead the bots to run massively above AIEV, as they took -EV lines with perhaps knowing which cards were dead etc etc.

I'd imagine more information to come to light over the coming days.

[Jamier-Host]

I don't know why these stories still surprise people.

There have been very smart people working on poker AI for a long time, and i'd be surprised if there were any sites where their presence wasn't rife. There are some pretty crappy bits of commercial software available (e.g this one) that allow anyone to get involved and potentially enhance the decision making of the default profiles provided. However the really dangerous guys are those that quietly work in private and, even more powerfully, add real-time collusion to the mix. It's just inevitable that it's going on with the financial upside.

Part of the problem is that for the sites/networks that aren't at the top of the tree, these guys probably contribute a big chunk of their ongoing revenue! It's true you'd hope Stars would have more of a long-term outlook on the downside, but they're still up against a bunch of very smart computer scientists, and it's like other cyber security areas where you're often fighting a losing battle against highly sophisticated "attackers".

[Tal]

Jamier-Host nails it.

Only a matter of time before a player is ejected from a live major tournament for running hands through an engine, either on his 'phone or being fed the info through a device. It's inevitable.

[AndrewT]

Jamier-Host nails it.

Only a matter of time before a player is ejected from a live major tournament for running hands through an engine, either on his 'phone or being fed the info through a device. It's inevitable.

I'd start getting suspicious if this guy sits down to play with you.

[Tal]

Jamier-Host nails it.

Only a matter of time before a player is ejected from a live major tournament for running hands through an engine, either on his 'phone or being fed the info through a device. It's inevitable.

I'd start getting suspicious if this guy sits down to play with you.

Where were you when I needed you, Andrew?

[MC]

Ugh, scary shit

[teddybloat]

Lets legalise bots.

Give them their own room where players can pit their wits against bots, or bot makers can pit their bots against other bots.

Bring it out in the open imo.

[TightEnd]

these bots pay the same rake to the room that you or i pay? the room does not distinguish?

so up and until now its fair to say the incentive for the room to do much about this has been mixed at best?

[Whollyflush]

these bots pay the same rake to the room that you or i pay? the room does not distinguish?

so up and until now its fair to say the incentive for the room to do much about this has been mixed at best?

If they were break even or slight winners/losers pre rakeback, this would be perfect for the site. As it turns out they are the absolute crushers of these stakes, the fact they have raked 2.5mill and lets assume they have cashed out all 1.4mill its still a net win for stars.

I only play NLHE but got a refund for $60 last week and I have no idea who or how long the banned account had been around. I'd be surprised if a more proportional refund wasn't closer to $600. You would hope been regulated, there more clarity on jurisdiction and protection of the players, but i guess time will tell.

[rfgqqabc]

these bots pay the same rake to the room that you or i pay? the room does not distinguish?

so up and until now its fair to say the incentive for the room to do much about this has been mixed at best?

Well they win at a higher rate than the average regular so take money out of the system quicker, stop it being passed about and raked. They will also cause potentially billions more in damages to the actual site, so as shitty as I think this is, I don't think Stars allowed it at all, they were too lazy and complacent. They forgot to take into account that certain players are more likely to be able to spot a bot than average, so when regulars previously emailed them, they were given the stock loony toon response, instead of being taken into account and an investigation taken place. Admittedly, one of the SNE who claims have emailed several of the previously banned, and current alleged accounts named a bunch of random people as botters since he heard the news, but his previous email could have easily have stopped this months ago. They missed several more obvious detection methods, like how has this new player emerged and played 8 hours a day 6 days a week for the past 3 months at a winrate that is exceptional.


Many people are also angry because Stars recently countered arguments that the rake was too high by showing regulars who had very solid winrates, showing it was still possible. Pretty devastating stuff and it just shows you how good someone has to be to have moved up from Stars low to midstakes, or even beat poker on any site nowadays. There is almost proof that bots have been on every single site on the internet now at this point, beating all sorts of games too while they are at it. People thought PLO was safe, and would be for years. It isn't.