Third Runway @ Heathrow?

[tikay]

This decision is political dynamite, & I'm not convinced the Government has the will to make such decisions, so I suspect they will prevaricate at length.

None of us like the notion of more noise or pollution, equally we want to fly all over the place, & not face delays & congested terminals. 

We have to have the additional capacity, imo.

Third runway @ Heathrow?

Second runway @ Gatwick?

Stansted or Luton redeveloped?

Bonkers Boris's Island in the Thames?


Seems to me Gatwick has the best case. Relatively more expansion room in undeveloped countryside or semi-rural area, has a good train service to London already, though may need an upgrade, the M23 would need extending north, further into London. Probably the best solution? 

Click to see full-size image.

Click to see full-size image.

[Royal Flush]

Gatwick seems the obvious answer, train connection is very quick and already a very well served route. The noise considerations are far less, the road link is a big draw back but with the current climate of deterring road users I don't see why that would be a problem, It would be quite easy to encourage airlines to open checkin desks at Victoria station

[Jon MW]

There was an article on the BBC a bit ago.

It said that plans for more capacity go back to the 50's or 60's.

Every time it's come up the government has commissioned some expert advice - every time the expert advice has recommended expanding Heathrow as the best solution.

Every time the government has chickened out and postponed it until they were no longer the government or put in place an alternative plan that didn't come out top.

We've got to the last step this time - it really won't be a surprise if they do the same thing as all the other times and back away from the option that is overwhelmingly recommended by the report that they themselves commissioned.

[tikay]

Gatwick seems the obvious answer, train connection is very quick and already a very well served route. The noise considerations are far less, the road link is a big draw back but with the current climate of deterring road users I don't see why that would be a problem, It would be quite easy to encourage airlines to open checkin desks at Victoria station

That sums it up for me.

Thing is, as JonMW alludes, will they ever have the guts to make the decision, wherever it is?

[Jon MW]

It wasn't quite as clear cut as I remembered but it's pretty depressing - particularly when you compare it to how other countries just go for it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33285659

[AlunB]

Gatwick seems the obvious answer, train connection is very quick and already a very well served route. The noise considerations are far less, the road link is a big draw back but with the current climate of deterring road users I don't see why that would be a problem, It would be quite easy to encourage airlines to open checkin desks at Victoria station

Really? It's pretty bad in my experience. Gatwick Express is regular, but still takes > 30 mins to get into Victoria and is often faced with delays on an incredibly congested route. If you want to get the normal trains into Gatwick from somewhere like Clapham then good luck during any rush hour slots with getting a seat. It's already busy as it is, so how on earth are twice as many people going to get onto those trains? I doubt there is spare capacity on that route.

But the main issue for me is this is literally your only option. There is no tube, no taxi (unless you are fine with dropping the best part of £100 on one), and a coach takes well over an hour, which is a long old way if you've just stepped off a 10 hour flight.

There is no getting away from the fact that Gatwick is a long long way from Central London.

[david3103]

Why does it have to be in the sarf?

Why not expand Birmngham or Nottingham?

[TightEnd]

Why does it have to be in the sarf?

Why not expand Birmngham or Nottingham?

because it would take 90 minutes to get to london once out of the terminal, unless you spend gazillions on upgrading connection links?

tourists, business travellers want promimity to london, first and foremost, right?

[tikay]

Gatwick seems the obvious answer, train connection is very quick and already a very well served route. The noise considerations are far less, the road link is a big draw back but with the current climate of deterring road users I don't see why that would be a problem, It would be quite easy to encourage airlines to open checkin desks at Victoria station

Really? It's pretty bad in my experience. Gatwick Express is regular, but still takes > 30 mins to get into Victoria and is often faced with delays on an incredibly congested route. If you want to get the normal trains into Gatwick from somewhere like Clapham then good luck during any rush hour slots with getting a seat. It's already busy as it is, so how on earth are twice as many people going to get onto those trains? I doubt there is spare capacity on that route.

But the main issue for me is this is literally your only option. There is no tube, no taxi (unless you are fine with dropping the best part of £100 on one), and a coach takes well over an hour, which is a long old way if you've just stepped off a 10 hour flight.

There is no getting away from the fact that Gatwick is a long long way from Central London.

It would need upgrading Alun, but in relative terms, that'd be reasonably cheap. The M23 would need extending north, too.

I'm a big fan of Heathrow, & all else aside, I'd like it to be there, but it ain't half gonna cause a ruck.

Mainly though, I just wasn't the Government to grow a pair, & make a clear decision. That's what good Governments do.  Lady Thatcher would have made the decision long ago, & just got on with it.

[AlunB]

Gatwick seems the obvious answer, train connection is very quick and already a very well served route. The noise considerations are far less, the road link is a big draw back but with the current climate of deterring road users I don't see why that would be a problem, It would be quite easy to encourage airlines to open checkin desks at Victoria station

Really? It's pretty bad in my experience. Gatwick Express is regular, but still takes > 30 mins to get into Victoria and is often faced with delays on an incredibly congested route. If you want to get the normal trains into Gatwick from somewhere like Clapham then good luck during any rush hour slots with getting a seat. It's already busy as it is, so how on earth are twice as many people going to get onto those trains? I doubt there is spare capacity on that route.

But the main issue for me is this is literally your only option. There is no tube, no taxi (unless you are fine with dropping the best part of £100 on one), and a coach takes well over an hour, which is a long old way if you've just stepped off a 10 hour flight.

There is no getting away from the fact that Gatwick is a long long way from Central London.

It would need upgrading Alun, but in relative terms, that'd be reasonably cheap. The M23 would need extending north, too.

I'm a big fan of Heathrow, & all else aside, I'd like it to be there, but it ain't half gonna cause a ruck.

Mainly though, I just wasn't the Government to grow a pair, & make a clear decision. That's what good Governments do.  Lady Thatcher would have made the decision long ago, & just got on with it.

But hugely disruptive to those using those lines for their daily commute no? I (and i believe you) have used SW Trains to commute and it's not exactly the slickest operation as it is.

[AlunB]

Gatwick seems the obvious answer, train connection is very quick and already a very well served route. The noise considerations are far less, the road link is a big draw back but with the current climate of deterring road users I don't see why that would be a problem, It would be quite easy to encourage airlines to open checkin desks at Victoria station

Really? It's pretty bad in my experience. Gatwick Express is regular, but still takes > 30 mins to get into Victoria and is often faced with delays on an incredibly congested route. If you want to get the normal trains into Gatwick from somewhere like Clapham then good luck during any rush hour slots with getting a seat. It's already busy as it is, so how on earth are twice as many people going to get onto those trains? I doubt there is spare capacity on that route.

But the main issue for me is this is literally your only option. There is no tube, no taxi (unless you are fine with dropping the best part of £100 on one), and a coach takes well over an hour, which is a long old way if you've just stepped off a 10 hour flight.

There is no getting away from the fact that Gatwick is a long long way from Central London.

It would need upgrading Alun, but in relative terms, that'd be reasonably cheap. The M23 would need extending north, too.

I'm a big fan of Heathrow, & all else aside, I'd like it to be there, but it ain't half gonna cause a ruck.

Mainly though, I just wasn't the Government to grow a pair, & make a clear decision. That's what good Governments do.  Lady Thatcher would have made the decision long ago, & just got on with it.

Agree with this bit. I also agree you might as well stick it on the East side of Birmingham as stick it in Gatwick and link it to HS2.

[tikay]

Gatwick seems the obvious answer, train connection is very quick and already a very well served route. The noise considerations are far less, the road link is a big draw back but with the current climate of deterring road users I don't see why that would be a problem, It would be quite easy to encourage airlines to open checkin desks at Victoria station

Really? It's pretty bad in my experience. Gatwick Express is regular, but still takes > 30 mins to get into Victoria and is often faced with delays on an incredibly congested route. If you want to get the normal trains into Gatwick from somewhere like Clapham then good luck during any rush hour slots with getting a seat. It's already busy as it is, so how on earth are twice as many people going to get onto those trains? I doubt there is spare capacity on that route.

But the main issue for me is this is literally your only option. There is no tube, no taxi (unless you are fine with dropping the best part of £100 on one), and a coach takes well over an hour, which is a long old way if you've just stepped off a 10 hour flight.

There is no getting away from the fact that Gatwick is a long long way from Central London.

It would need upgrading Alun, but in relative terms, that'd be reasonably cheap. The M23 would need extending north, too.

I'm a big fan of Heathrow, & all else aside, I'd like it to be there, but it ain't half gonna cause a ruck.

Mainly though, I just wasn't the Government to grow a pair, & make a clear decision. That's what good Governments do.  Lady Thatcher would have made the decision long ago, & just got on with it.

But hugely disruptive to those using those lines for their daily commute no? I (and i believe you) have used SW Trains to commute and it's not exactly the slickest operation as it is.

Yes, I use South West Trains a fair bit. Not being obdurate here, but I think their operation is extremely efficient & well-managed, certainly far better than the shambles that is First Great Western, or most of the others bar the East Coast Main Line. Stand on Vauxhall Station in the Rush Hour & count the trains going past at 30 second intervals with astonishing punctuality, it's a formidable feat of organisation to do that day after day.

The South West Trains problem is not efficiency, it's the sheer weight of numbers that use it.

Incidentally, Gatwick is served by Southern Railway, not South West Trains, though your point would be much the same really. There is temporary convergence at Clapham Junction as I recall.

[AlunB]

No that's a fair point. I meant more that the sheer volume means the slightest fault causes absolute chaos, same as with the tube. And it often does with old trains and patched up ageing track. Wasn't really intended as a slight to the people running the show.

Imagine having to shut a section of the line for an extended period? Doesn't bear thinking about.

[tikay]

No that's a fair point. I meant more that the sheer volume means the slightest fault causes absolute chaos, same as with the tube. And it often does with old trains and patched up ageing track. Wasn't really intended as a slight to the people running the show.

Imagine having to shut a section of the line for an extended period? Doesn't bear thinking about.

Ahh, yes, agree 100% with that. The slightest problem has horrendous knock-on, & much of the rolling stock is pretty ancient, as is the infrastructure.

One blip & you are looking at 4 hours of delay.

Heathrow, of course, has a dedicated line, & it works very well indeed. Pricey, mind. Not run by a standard TOC either, which helps.

[atdc21]

Hi Tikay,
            I like train travel but don't get to use it that often, however when i do, i'm always amazed how full the Penzance to Paddington train is when i get on at Taunton.Surely there aren't that many people from Cornwall that have office jobs in London.