We Are Poker Players - join the protest against Amaya.

[tikay]

As a regular, i'd say that this is a very big misconception about huds. I never use any stats aside few basic like vpip or PFR against recreational players. Never. I'm an honest players, i've never bought any mining in my career and i don't have nearly enough hands on a single rec to make me look for the advanced stats. They are only used against other regular players. And Amaya won't remove huds completely - why else would they make Jivaro? As for the complete removal of huds, i would support it if there was a solution against cheaters who would create their own hud undetectable by stars.
tikay yes, i know, that out demand seems too radical, but it's the only demand that matters. If we're correct about Amaya's intentions of turning poker into a casino game - any other demand is meaningless. So, we have to make enough leverage so our demand will be met.

I would say your demands are more unrealistic than radical. You are demanding too much.

Here's some food for thought for you - what do you think of this article?


 http://www.onlinepokerreport.com/19247/impact-pokerstars-boycotts-online-poker-liquidity/

[SuuPRlim]

I've been very reluctant to critise the people behind the amaya strikes because I have a lot of respect people who take action against things which affect them. However this really is, imo, a completely incorrect strategy.

What you are effectively attempting is to blackmail a billion dollar public trading company, they will never give in to these demands and neither should they, you are asking for access to their recreational player pool...use of their software...use of their cashier and you also want to (as a non shareholding group) govern how the company provides you this product and at what price? It's actually well across the border into absurd and I really implore you to stop wasting your time on this direction as it will destroy your efforts.

I am in involved in the gambling industry and I know this, your biggest asset is your recreational player pool. I accept that pro players are responsible for a huge amount of rake generation but this player pool is extremely dis-loyal (is that the word) they go where the action is...someone comes along and says move to this site, soft games and their off. No site, irrespective of it's size will allow its pro-players to basically blackmail them over how to service this player pool, it would be the most tragic business move, and Amaya giving in to your demands would be 50x a worse business decision than anything they have done so far.

You've given them absolutely no way to give in...all they can do against your action is to fight you, they have no other choice. You should have stuck to just demanding the re-instatment of the VIP scheme...even though chances of success there are very minimal too.

Remember you're not dealing with one man here you can talk rationally with, you're talking to a board of shareholders...and they see one thing only, dollars and dimes.

Here's what I would have one if I were you, rather then strike on pokerstars you need the backing of another site, Party or 888 would be the most ideal purely because of their size. Say to them on these dates you will bring 5000 players, can they provide the games you want, the range of MTT's with the gte's that are required to at least semi-compete with PS and some sort of VIP scheme maybe or bonuses and not just take 5000 players offline for a week but take 5000 players to a competitor, say to the site if you work with us and provide us with the enviroment we want then we could move permanently.

You'll never get PS to bend to your requests, you just won't and everyone deep down knows this, but you could get a competitor, with the lure of your player base to proovide you with at last something similar to the environment you want and give them a small headstart in taking on PS.

Problem you have is that as soon as games get good on PS...your players will be back...

GL with it anyways

[wearepokerplayers]

As a regular, i'd say that this is a very big misconception about huds. I never use any stats aside few basic like vpip or PFR against recreational players. Never. I'm an honest players, i've never bought any mining in my career and i don't have nearly enough hands on a single rec to make me look for the advanced stats. They are only used against other regular players. And Amaya won't remove huds completely - why else would they make Jivaro? As for the complete removal of huds, i would support it if there was a solution against cheaters who would create their own hud undetectable by stars.
tikay yes, i know, that out demand seems too radical, but it's the only demand that matters. If we're correct about Amaya's intentions of turning poker into a casino game - any other demand is meaningless. So, we have to make enough leverage so our demand will be met.

I would say your demands are more unrealistic than radical. You are demanding too much.

Here's some food for thought for you - what do you think of this article?


 http://www.onlinepokerreport.com/19247/impact-pokerstars-boycotts-online-poker-liquidity/

Decent article. We will present our numbers on the latest strike very soon. We published those numbers already in russian and currently translating it to english.
SuuPRlim, the whole idea, how we see it is that Amaya is very desperate and that's why they did what they did(not only reduced vip-rewards, but cut second year of sn and sne rewards what enraged players all over the world). We don't know what exactly Baazov promised to his investors but, as i understand it, it's common practice that if he fails to fullfill this promises, he could loose the company to the creditors - my english is not good enough to translate our financial advisor opinion on that. So, either Baazov starts respecting players or new owners will understand that you can't f*** with us.

[AlunB]

As a regular, i'd say that this is a very big misconception about huds. I never use any stats aside few basic like vpip or PFR against recreational players. Never. I'm an honest players, i've never bought any mining in my career and i don't have nearly enough hands on a single rec to make me look for the advanced stats. They are only used against other regular players. And Amaya won't remove huds completely - why else would they make Jivaro? As for the complete removal of huds, i would support it if there was a solution against cheaters who would create their own hud undetectable by stars.
tikay yes, i know, that out demand seems too radical, but it's the only demand that matters. If we're correct about Amaya's intentions of turning poker into a casino game - any other demand is meaningless. So, we have to make enough leverage so our demand will be met.

I would say your demands are more unrealistic than radical. You are demanding too much.

Here's some food for thought for you - what do you think of this article?


 http://www.onlinepokerreport.com/19247/impact-pokerstars-boycotts-online-poker-liquidity/

Decent article. We will present our numbers on the latest strike very soon. We published those numbers already in russian and currently translating it to english.
SuuPRlim, the whole idea, how we see it is that Amaya is very desperate and that's why they did what they did(not only reduced vip-rewards, but cut second year of sn and sne rewards what enraged players all over the world). We don't know what exactly Baazov promised to his investors but, as i understand it, it's common practice that if he fails to fullfill this promises, he could loose the company to the creditors - my english is not good enough to translate our financial advisor opinion on that. So, either Baazov starts respecting players or new owners will understand that you can't f*** with us.

Your English is either much worse than you think or I'm missing something here. It's a public company. He doesn't own it anyway. And so long as he doesn't default on his debt then he's fine. They would need to lose an absolute shit load of money to make that a possibility.

[Jon MW]

What makes you think that Amaya is, "very desperate"?

[TightEnd]

amaya can't lose the company to its creditors if its solvent

management might be voted out by shareholders, strategy might change, it could be in more corporate activity but some of the doomsday stuff you are expecting is highly highly unlikely

[arbboy]

I have never had a stars account.  If i was to ever sign up for one and play it would probably be on a day when all the pros strike.  This is what i would want and want stars would want.  Why do you think going on strike helps your cause?  It makes Star's position even more stronger than it already was. 

Why are these wallet talking poker players so brain dead?  I just don't get it.  Stars don't owe you a living.  If you can't beat the game on their terms then find a job.  Millions of others do.

[AlunB]

What makes you think that Amaya is, "very desperate"?

Probably this https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=AYA.TO#symbol=AYA.TO;range=1y

[buffyslayer1]

What makes you think that Amaya is, "very desperate"?

Share price is tanking very hard, they have huge debt repayments to keep up which they barely are and likely to fall behind on if a few things don't go their way.

They massively overpaid for stars and then mortgaged up to the hilt to pay for it. Think of the glazeers buying out man utd back in the day and then putting the debt onto the club.

I think its a belief held by quite a few people that a big driver of these changes is simply cost cutting and raising prices to mitigate those things. Not the PR spin they put on it that it is going to be good for the ecology for the games. A view held by more than a few that actually the changes long term will do the opposite.

Hence this seems like a somewhat desperate course of action from Stars/amaya

[buffyslayer1]

I have never had a stars account.  If i was to ever sign up for one and play it would probably be on a day when all the pros strike.  This is what i would want and want stars would want.  Why do you think going on strike helps your cause?  It makes Star's position even more stronger than it already was. 

Why are these wallet talking poker players so brain dead?  I just don't get it.  Stars don't owe you a living.  If you can't beat the game on their terms then find a job.  Millions of others do.

Comments like this they are really uninformed and just seem a bit bitter for some reason and really miss the point of why people are striking.

(As a Full disclaimer i joined the 1st strike, and not this one for quite a few reasons. Furthermore I don't agree with all the 'demands' made by 'weareepokerplayers'. I play mtts do not rely on rakeback or the VIP system at all but fundamentally disagree with how these changes have been handled )

People are not striking because of this, stop drinking the stars tonic. It's not about stars owing anyone a living at all or not being able to beat the game.

They are striking because they were lied to and deceived about the VIP program which is a 2 year program which was gutted 10 months into it. They are striking because theirs fpp balances were cut by 25% (might have been 20% can't recall exactly) on Jan the 1st with little warning before hand. This 2nd point is not as much of an issue for most players but still effects some players badly.

If the changes had been announced in Jan 2015 not one single player would be striking, they may not have been happy about it. However, I am certain not 1 single pro would be complaining about how it was unfair etc.

With the current scenario, at worst they are being stolen from and at best they have been misled and lied to on a massive scale.

Stars then adds insult to injury by claiming they are doing it for the benefit of the recreational player. When in all likelihood it will become even worse for the rec player. Whether you are a pro or play for fun, I don't think anybody wants to see the biggest online poker site effectively kill a bunch of games due to short term greed either.

The whole we are doing this for the ecology is just another lie/spin, there is a ton of stuff the should have done a long time ago to 'protect' the rec player that they never and still have not done.

As I said its not about being owed a living or any of that utter BS some people keep saying, I don't know one single player who feels stars owes them anything except what they were promised.

[wearepokerplayers]

As a regular, i'd say that this is a very big misconception about huds. I never use any stats aside few basic like vpip or PFR against recreational players. Never. I'm an honest players, i've never bought any mining in my career and i don't have nearly enough hands on a single rec to make me look for the advanced stats. They are only used against other regular players. And Amaya won't remove huds completely - why else would they make Jivaro? As for the complete removal of huds, i would support it if there was a solution against cheaters who would create their own hud undetectable by stars.
tikay yes, i know, that out demand seems too radical, but it's the only demand that matters. If we're correct about Amaya's intentions of turning poker into a casino game - any other demand is meaningless. So, we have to make enough leverage so our demand will be met.

I would say your demands are more unrealistic than radical. You are demanding too much.

Here's some food for thought for you - what do you think of this article?


 http://www.onlinepokerreport.com/19247/impact-pokerstars-boycotts-online-poker-liquidity/

Decent article. We will present our numbers on the latest strike very soon. We published those numbers already in russian and currently translating it to english.
SuuPRlim, the whole idea, how we see it is that Amaya is very desperate and that's why they did what they did(not only reduced vip-rewards, but cut second year of sn and sne rewards what enraged players all over the world). We don't know what exactly Baazov promised to his investors but, as i understand it, it's common practice that if he fails to fullfill this promises, he could loose the company to the creditors - my english is not good enough to translate our financial advisor opinion on that. So, either Baazov starts respecting players or new owners will understand that you can't f*** with us.

Your English is either much worse than you think or I'm missing something here. It's a public company. He doesn't own it anyway. And so long as he doesn't default on his debt then he's fine. They would need to lose an absolute shit load of money to make that a possibility.

Well, probably i lack the understanding of those kind of things, so i'm translating whatever our financial advisor says(and he's very good at this) probably confusing a lot.

[dwayne110]

Very well put post Buffy, I'm indifferent either way as I don't play online but I think you've summarised the arguments of the regs on Blonde in the most concise (and dare I say, non-aggro) tone to date.

[wearepokerplayers]

I want to add to the great post by buffyslayer1 that nobody ever talks about any living owed by Stars. They are running business and they can do it however they feel it would be best(with the exception to the cur of the second year of benefits - that is purely disgraceful) but we have two important points:
1. We are sure that Amaya can't handle any pressure in their financial position, and if we gather more players (at least 5000), we will have a decent leverage against a company in a desperate financial position. If we gather 10000 players, we will have great leverage. Amaya bullies everyone they can - affiliates, regulars, players who deposit in currencies other than USD, they censor live announcers forbiddiing them even to mention changes in VIP-system. I think we have to bully them back.
2. The course they are taking poker to is clearly bad for the game. Yeah, we have our own interest in the first place but they actually correlate with the future of the game as intellectual sport, not the game of luck amaya imposes.

[SuuPRlim]

No I get what you are saying, and defo doesn't look great from the outside looking in at Amaya right now, i'm by no means an expert on this stuff but I believe there is a huge similarity to this and thre manchester utd takeover a while ago, and i think the model of servicing the purchasing debt out of short term cash flow is one that is pretty widely used in business takeovers of all sizes, and one thing is always pretty consistent with this sort of strategy and that is that the first 6-30 months are hellishly difficult because you are constantly handcuffed by the debt.

Anyways the request that Amaya are not allowed to make changes to its product before it being approved by a pannel of its customers is impossible, it can't happen - if you let this play out 10,000,000 times it can't happen one single time.

I'd love to see you succeed honestly, but I'd really prefer to see you work towards some more realistic expectations.

[Jon MW]

What makes you think that Amaya is, "very desperate"?

Share price is tanking very hard, they have huge debt repayments to keep up which they barely are and likely to fall behind on if a few things don't go their way.

They massively overpaid for stars and then mortgaged up to the hilt to pay for it. Think of the glazeers buying out man utd back in the day and then putting the debt onto the club.

I think its a belief held by quite a few people that a big driver of these changes is simply cost cutting and raising prices to mitigate those things. Not the PR spin they put on it that it is going to be good for the ecology for the games. A view held by more than a few that actually the changes long term will do the opposite.

Hence this seems like a somewhat desperate course of action from Stars/amaya

Thanks that's a good explanation of their possibly short termist behaviour - but if they're trying to exploit their monopoly position by squeezing extra money from Pokerstars; and they're still not making enough money - how can they agree to any 'demands' that would make them even less money? (even if that were a thing that a company would ever do)

I would have thought worst case scenario (for the players) is that Amaya just gets new financing and a new board and carries on the same, best case scenario is they become a takeover target and the new owners have deeper pockets who can put more value on customer service - but that customer service is still going to be based on what's best for the recs (I would imagine) so it would certainly not include a lot of these demands.

NB. I would imagine that the VIP programme would have the same kind of thing any money off vouchers off have; that is a notice somewhere saying their value is 0.000001p; therefore when they cut the value of what points/whatever are exchanged for they are still exchanging it for many times more than their nominal value and hence it can't be shown that they're 'taking' anything away from the people involved. If it's not that then I expect there's something similar.