Devilish trips

[TightEnd]

Live £75 MTT

200 runners

early stages

100-200

playing 17,000, all others in hand cover

EP raise to 450. straightforward player

called in two spots. both Laggy players from 2 levels obvservation. in a lot of pots, seeing a lot of flops. have had it at showdown though often with funky starting hands

you defend big blind with 

it comes 

you check, hoping for action. possible/probable check raise, possible check call if going HU to turn

disappointingly it checks round

turn 

pot 1850

you lead 1100

Original raiser quickly flats

caller makes it 4,000 and smirks

second folder calls

back to you

what option do you like here?

what would you do different on flop, or turn before it gets to this point?

thanks

[Longines]

Think I make it 7000 because no-one appears willing to fold, with 4 in the hand on the river with 10k back and a 30k pot I'm expecting one, hopefully two callers.

[PathFinder]

I would lead flop. As played on turn I'm going all in. Re-raising looks uber strong which may cause hero folds and flatting brings loads of rivers that kills your action.

[DMorgan]

Call

Pot is big enough already that we almost always stack the turn raiser when he has trips or better. Flatting lets the preflop raiser make a bad call with some sort of turned combo draw

[muckthenuts]

Call and always checking river too

[pleno1]

i'd check turn, i don't see that much worse that calls that doesn't bet itself.

[UgotNuts]

I like the line so far. Players in these buyins, often never believe a turn lead after its checked round on flop and you are looking for value. It's close between shoving and calling here after this action. By calling I would expect the original caller to over call a lot of the time hoping to make some kind of straight on the river, and I would expect the raiser to bet his perceived range on the river for value, and his bluffs, which helps you get maximum value, the guy in the middle is often giving up most of his hands if unimproved on river.

By Shoving the guy in the middle is going to fold most of his range but when the raiser has his perceived range your going stack him, but you are folding out any of his bluffs.

Personally I think flating on the turn, although it looks super strong vs a decent player, is just going to be more profitable in the long run in these buyins.

[Oxford_HRV]

Always checking if we are 4 way and first to act on flop an turn. someone will stab eventually or we can take pure value at the river, kinda one of them hands for me when we turn nuts and no one else can really have much. As played I call turn and lean forward an say check otr

[pleno1]

yes leading the turn is very greedy and we can do cleverer greedy things here. we can c/r river when they hit a pair, flat turn and let them bluff river etc etc. here we are saying "were going for 2 big streets of value" but guys usually bet overpass on the flop, if they don't, they will bet the turn, we block the turned pair, so by betting the turn it doesn't accomplish anything.

[UgotNuts]

guys are so curious in these buyins live. They expect you to check strong hands out of poistion. If I had a dollar for every time I heard "I didn't think you would bet a strong hand in that spot" or " thought you were at it" I would have more cashes than moorman. It's all anti meta stuff though and depends on what your playing.

[pleno1]

You're not looking at it right. think about it all in ranges. Which hands will he call that he won't bet? Will he really call those hands 2 streets? What about the other hands in his range, how can we get max value vs them?

[UgotNuts]

I agree, I'm not looking at it from ranges but more from a situational point of view. If I was going to break it down from the breakdown I would say the Straight forward EP opener has ak/aq/aj/ 77-10 based on pre flop and flop action. The caller and over caller have a wide perceived range but not normally strong so pairs 88-22 67,89,J10 connectors and over funky junk as tighty's observations.

So if I check the turn, EP might take a stab, and if not the callers might take a stab with all their range.

Action is back round to me. I flat with the view of checking/raising river. all hands with showdown value which do not contain a 6 or full houses, are checking back and we win a 20-35BB pot. Or I flat with the view of C/R turn, it looks super strong and would expect folds all round for all ranges that are not houses or contain a 6.

If the action checks round on turn, I now only have one street of potential value and couldn't risk checking the river so lead. EP range will probably call and the callers fold all non pocket pair, 6x hands, in addition they may even fold their perceived pocket pairs, as they assume one of us "must have a six". And again they raise all 6x hands for value and we stack them, same outcome as if we check raise, call shove. So again we win a 20-35 Bb stack when he doesn't have a house orthe case 6.

Instead I bet turn, for two reasons  one for value from EP range and popular tendencies, secondly to induce potential squeeze plays from the late position callers. although I feel we are getting called by the EP player over 80% of the time, we will say everyone folds and we win a 10bb pot and get the worst value from are hand.

Second situation We get called from the EP and the callers fold. All Ax hand that improve to a pair are calling a river bet, and a fair % of time checking back if we check as they have showdown and are not sure if we have a 6 or not. And all pairs are calling most rivers that don't improve them. So we bet for value on river and get called most of the time winning a 30-40 Bb pot.

Third situation, action is as tighty explains. All perceived ranges are as explained above. EP should fold all his Ax hands after we have shoved, but may feel he is priced in if we flat. So we flat and sure enough EP flats and looks like he is in some pain. Pot is already 70bb and we have multiple options for our river play.

Could be overlooking something, it's just how I view it in live comps 200 or below.  right now I need a rest.

[TightEnd]

So I flatted with a view to checking the river

the original raiser comes along

we are 4 way to the river

6-4-6-5 holding 6-5

two hearts on the board

no way there isn't action on the river surely?

pot is 17900

your stack is 12500

river comes 




check or shove or something else?

[doubleup]

Anyone like a small bet here to induce?

[shipitgood]

Jam
Bet~7000-8000
Check

If they call 7/8k, they will probs call a jam. A flush must be a decent % of 1 players holdings.

Pros of betting smaller, you might get 2 x calls. jamming might just get the 1 call. Maybe to these players betting less than all in might look weaker, like you've just hit your flush but don't feel confident enough moving all your chips in.

At start of post I liked moving all in > betting less than all in. Now I kind of like betting 7/8k. If you check, while perhaps unlikely, there is a small chance it could go check check. I suppose another benefit in betting lesser than all in you could get called by 6x.