Brussels airport bombing

[PokerBroker]

Can't we just call them terrorists? 

Ultimately that is what they are.  I see no reason why we need to tag them as anything other. 

[DungBeetle]

Can't we just call them terrorists? 

Ultimately that is what they are.  I see no reason why we need to tag them as anything other. 

i find it bizarre that you won't allow any link between the terrorists and Islam.  They specifically kill people in the name of their religion so to not to even mention it at risk of offending someone is bonkers. 

[DungBeetle]

For comparison 70 people will be killed on European roads today, tomorrow and everyday forward.

I know which will get more media coverage.

Daft.  Why was there any media coverage of the twin towers attack.  After all more people die of cancer in a year.

[PokerBroker]

Can't we just call them terrorists? 

Ultimately that is what they are.  I see no reason why we need to tag them as anything other. 

i find it bizarre that you won't allow any link between the terrorists and Islam.  They specifically kill people in the name of their religion so to not to even mention it at risk of offending someone is bonkers. 

Do they though? 

How many Muslims do you know that would subscribe to that idea. 

Is their killing people in the name of their religion akin to our Christian governments murdering folk in the name of national security the same thing?

It's not that I am not allowing links, I don't see it as necessary.  It just leads to more Islamaphobia in my eyes. 

[DungBeetle]

Can't we just call them terrorists? 

Ultimately that is what they are.  I see no reason why we need to tag them as anything other. 

i find it bizarre that you won't allow any link between the terrorists and Islam.  They specifically kill people in the name of their religion so to not to even mention it at risk of offending someone is bonkers. 

Do they though? 

How many Muslims do you know that would subscribe to that idea. 

Is their killing people in the name of their religion akin to our Christian governments murdering folk in the name of national security the same thing?

It's not that I am not allowing links, I don't see it as necessary.  It just leads to more Islamaphobia in my eyes. 

I take your point that we risk the dumb in our society blaming all Muslims for it.  But the vast majority understand that this is an extremist element and in no way representative of the majority.  Surely you agree that the terrorists "think" they are doing it in the name of religion even if they are misguided?  What other Muslims think isn't really relevant in regard to the terrorists themselves considering it a religious quest.  I think the link is necessary if people are to understand the problem of radicalisation.

[PokerBroker]

My face book is littered with comments from people who I wouldn't have ordinarily classed as racist or stupid but reading through the comments there is a hatred of all things Muslim and that has breached into other races because they "look the same".  If your surrounded with people who can engage in an intelligent debate then I think its fair enough to look at the religious angle.   

Additionally, I grew up in Ireland which has its own problems with bigotry, racism and terrorism.   I was a Roman Catholic and I hailed from a nationalist family and when the IRA were bombing we were targeted by racists who thought we were a legitimate target for retribution despite our family being appalled when civilians were killed.   

There can be absolutely no excuse for what has happened in Belgium today or Paris in November.  But blaming a religion isn't going to help matters.   We need the progressive Muslims to stand up to these nutters, but they face retribution if they come out and decry this rogue element.   We should not be trying to antagonize the Muslim community we should be looking for their support in overcoming the issue.   Blaming their religion won't allow for that to happen. 

Too often we live in a bubble and don't appreciate what is going on outside that bubble and our news sources don't help in my view. 

[DaveShoelace]

There can be absolutely no excuse for what has happened in Belgium today or Paris in November.  But blaming a religion isn't going to help matters.   We need the progressive Muslims to stand up to these nutters, but they face retribution if they come out and decry this rogue element.   We should not be trying to antagonize the Muslim community we should be looking for their support in overcoming the issue.   Blaming their religion won't allow for that to happen. 

Completely agree that the only way this stops is via reform from the Muslim community itself. They are the biggest victims of terrorism after all.

But you are contradicting yourself here, you are saying blaming their religion doesn't help, yet you also acknowledge that if they speak out about the rogue element they face retribution, which is surely a problem of the religion? Not trying to trip you up here, but how can the peaceful majority stand up to these nutters as you put it, if criticism of the religion is not allowed?

[Doobs]

There can be absolutely no excuse for what has happened in Belgium today or Paris in November.  But blaming a religion isn't going to help matters.   We need the progressive Muslims to stand up to these nutters, but they face retribution if they come out and decry this rogue element.   We should not be trying to antagonize the Muslim community we should be looking for their support in overcoming the issue.   Blaming their religion won't allow for that to happen. 

Completely agree that the only way this stops is via reform from the Muslim community itself. They are the biggest victims of terrorism after all.

But you are contradicting yourself here, you are saying blaming their religion doesn't help, yet you also acknowledge that if they speak out about the rogue element they face retribution, which is surely a problem of the religion? Not trying to trip you up here, but how can the peaceful majority stand up to these nutters as you put it, if criticism of the religion is not allowed?

If you are in some areas of Syria and Iraq, there may be retribution if you speak out, but that simply isn't the case in the majority of Muslim areas.  That is simply because in the vast majority of Muslim areas these people are rightly seen as a disgrace to their claimed religion.  And in those areas in Syria and Iraq where you can't speak out, it isn't people's internal beliefs that stop them speaking out, it is the fact there is a possibility they will be killed for doing so.

[DaveShoelace]

There can be absolutely no excuse for what has happened in Belgium today or Paris in November.  But blaming a religion isn't going to help matters.   We need the progressive Muslims to stand up to these nutters, but they face retribution if they come out and decry this rogue element.   We should not be trying to antagonize the Muslim community we should be looking for their support in overcoming the issue.   Blaming their religion won't allow for that to happen. 

Completely agree that the only way this stops is via reform from the Muslim community itself. They are the biggest victims of terrorism after all.

But you are contradicting yourself here, you are saying blaming their religion doesn't help, yet you also acknowledge that if they speak out about the rogue element they face retribution, which is surely a problem of the religion? Not trying to trip you up here, but how can the peaceful majority stand up to these nutters as you put it, if criticism of the religion is not allowed?

If you are in some areas of Syria and Iraq, there may be retribution if you speak out, but that simply isn't the case in the majority of Muslim areas.  That is simply because in the vast majority of Muslim areas these people are rightly seen as a disgrace to their claimed religion.  And in those areas in Syria and Iraq where you can't speak out, it isn't people's internal beliefs that stop them speaking out, it is the fact there is a possibility they will be killed for doing so.

That's actually the point I was (very clumsily) trying to make. The fact that they can't speak out in some parts of the world is a problem of the religion that needs to be discussed. Not saying we should force the people in those areas to speak out so candidly, but in areas that have secular, liberal, values, we should speak out on their behalf, because we can.

[DungBeetle]

My face book is littered with comments from people who I wouldn't have ordinarily classed as racist or stupid but reading through the comments there is a hatred of all things Muslim and that has breached into other races because they "look the same".  If your surrounded with people who can engage in an intelligent debate then I think its fair enough to look at the religious angle.   

Additionally, I grew up in Ireland which has its own problems with bigotry, racism and terrorism.   I was a Roman Catholic and I hailed from a nationalist family and when the IRA were bombing we were targeted by racists who thought we were a legitimate target for retribution despite our family being appalled when civilians were killed.   

There can be absolutely no excuse for what has happened in Belgium today or Paris in November.  But blaming a religion isn't going to help matters.   We need the progressive Muslims to stand up to these nutters, but they face retribution if they come out and decry this rogue element.   We should not be trying to antagonize the Muslim community we should be looking for their support in overcoming the issue.   Blaming their religion won't allow for that to happen. 

Too often we live in a bubble and don't appreciate what is going on outside that bubble and our news sources don't help in my view. 

Fair enough mate.  Good post and I take this onboard.

[DMorgan]

I take your point that we risk the dumb in our society blaming all Muslims for it.  But the vast majority understand that this is an extremist element and in no way representative of the majority.  Surely you agree that the terrorists "think" they are doing it in the name of religion even if they are misguided?  What other Muslims think isn't really relevant in regard to the terrorists themselves considering it a religious quest.  I think the link is necessary if people are to understand the problem of radicalisation.

Very unsure about this part. Remember that half of all people are of below average intelligence.

[PokerBroker]

I take your point that we risk the dumb in our society blaming all Muslims for it.  But the vast majority understand that this is an extremist element and in no way representative of the majority.  Surely you agree that the terrorists "think" they are doing it in the name of religion even if they are misguided?  What other Muslims think isn't really relevant in regard to the terrorists themselves considering it a religious quest.  I think the link is necessary if people are to understand the problem of radicalisation.

Very unsure about this part. Remember that half of all people are of below average intelligence.

Also in the Muslim community there are many who don't speak or read English and their news sources may promote a different view of what is happpening to what ours do.   Indeed, some would say that is key recruiting ground.   That is why we need a progressive element to stand up and be counted.  The answer is most definitely not the state sponsored former Jihadist who has been on Question Time on a few occasions.   

[Doobs]

http://quran.com/47/4

http://quran.com/17/16

http://quran.com/9/73


http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/muslim

Muslim - a person who follows the religion of Islam.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/terrorist

Terrorist - someone who uses violent  action, or threatsof violent  action, for political  purposes.


These people have committed these atrocious acts directly because of their Islamic Religion.

Directly?  They have committed these attrocities as they have joined a gang of psychopaths.  It is easy to find passages in religious books that say stupid things, you can find similar stuff in the bible as shown above. 

It is important to also read the overall message of the book.

http://www.iisna.com/articles/pamphlets/the-mercy-of-allah-god/

Whoever kills an innocent human being it shall be as if he has killed all mankind

Limitless is your Lord in his mercy.  God almighty is full of love and kindness to his creation

Muslim scholars around the World have warned of the non Islamic ideology of ISIS

Etc.

If I wanted to know what were the important parts of being christian, I wouldn't approach the biggest fundamentalist fuckwit I could find and ask him.  I'd approach those who are more educated and living normal lives.   These people will tell you that these people are not following the religion of Islam, but instead cherry picking small parts of the Quran that suit their purpose. 

I don't follow any religion, but it seems "Gods" get a bad press some times.

[PokerBroker]

So at what point do the British and Americans stop becoming terrorists? 

It is silly to look at dictionary definitions and then try and change the context.   

Bombing Syria clearly hasn't defeated these terrorist cells so would that be an act of terrorism? 

I know plenty of Muslims who are devout and are at Mosque daily, not one of them would take the preachings of the quran as literally as these nutters claim to be doing.   One of my mate claims his Jihad is against drink/drugs and gambling.  I no of not one time he has attempted or plotted to create havoc in a pub or casino. 

[DaveShoelace]

The religion does not directly cause these attacks. Nobody reads the Quran and turns into a homicidal maniac. Billions of Muslims have been exposed to it without them doing anything violent as a result, just as most people read the Bible etc.

What happens is disenfranchised young men get groomed by charismatic leaders of politically motivated groups like ISIS. The suicide bombers tend to have the exact same psychological profile as the nut jobs who do mass shootings in schools in America.

Where Islam is relevant is that it is the playbook used to both groom people for and dictate the nature of the attacks. The promise of paradise, the celebration of martyrdom etc. The other big difference between Islam and other extremist interpretations of religion is that most other religions have been through a period of reform, Islam has not in most parts of the world, in fact there are still many countries that have Shariah law. So while these attacks ultimately are political, there is a massive religious component to the politics.

It's for these reasons that we have the unenviable task of not letting racists further disenfranchise the peaceful majority, but we cannot bury our head in the sand and say it has nothing to do with the religion. The religion is being used to recruit, so we have to acknowledge where these bad ideas are coming from, in order to present better ideas to those people most likely to fall into these bad circles. IMO the only way this happens is if we help progressive muslims reform the religion, as PokerBroker has suggested.